February 07, 2007
ACC History Lesson - John Roche and USC
One of my readers sent me this link today - a long PDF chronicling the days of John Roche (and Bobby Cremins!) at USC. It's mighty lengthy - I've only skimmed it so far - but it's a pretty fascinating. For those of us who came along after South Carolina had already left the ACC, it's very easy to forget that part of the conference's history. But in the 70s, USC was every bit a power in the league, along with UNC, NC State and Maryland (Duke's rise came later).
One obvious conclusion after looking at this - USC's decision to leave the ACC was disastrous for them. One of the worst decisions ever made by a major program.
Comments
I emailed the author of the piece, commending him. It is one of the most interesting and absorbing sports pieces that I have ever read. I was too young to watch those Gamecocks, but I remember the players well from the ABA and NBA, especially Tom Owens who starred for Larry Brown on the might Carolina Cougars.
I think that it was the most crushing defeat in ACC basketball history, far worse than Maryland's loss to NC State in 1974, which was expected. USC was 16-0 in conference before losing to NC State, whom they had already beaten twice during the season, in double overtime. Not only did they not get to go to the NCAA tournament, they also could not go to the NIT because South Carolina was hosting the NCAA regionals.
UVa taking down Number 2 UNC in 1976 was also a crushing upset and made it impossible for Carolina to win the title because they were put in an unbalanced region that had virtually all of the top teams that year but at least we got to go to the tournament. UVa, 4-8 in conference had beaten3 excellent teams in 3 seed NC State, 2 seed Maryland and 1 seed Carolina went to the East Regional and went out meeking losing 69-60 to Depaul. Carolina lost to Alabama 79-64, which almost upset Indiana in the next round.
I think that it was the most crushing defeat in ACC basketball history, far worse than Maryland's loss to NC State in 1974, which was expected. USC was 16-0 in conference before losing to NC State, whom they had already beaten twice during the season, in double overtime. Not only did they not get to go to the NCAA tournament, they also could not go to the NIT because South Carolina was hosting the NCAA regionals.
UVa taking down Number 2 UNC in 1976 was also a crushing upset and made it impossible for Carolina to win the title because they were put in an unbalanced region that had virtually all of the top teams that year but at least we got to go to the tournament. UVa, 4-8 in conference had beaten3 excellent teams in 3 seed NC State, 2 seed Maryland and 1 seed Carolina went to the East Regional and went out meeking losing 69-60 to Depaul. Carolina lost to Alabama 79-64, which almost upset Indiana in the next round.
I've read that USC's decision to leave the ACC was the second worst sports decision of all time, beaten only by trading Babe Ruth to the Yankees.
My understanding is they never would have left if it hadn't been for those irritating recruiting regulations. Apparently the ACC had decided that they should be adhered to but USC thought otherwise.
| devilbythesea wrote: |
| My understanding is they never would have left if it hadn't been for those irritating recruiting regulations. Apparently the ACC had decided that they should be adhered to but USC thought otherwise. |
More specifically, the academic requirements, I believe. That's a nice touch to the whole thing. Not only was it epically stupid to leave the ACC, they did it for the worst possible reason!
To be fair to South Carolina, there was a general perception in that state that they were not treated fairly by the Big 4 North Carolina schools, coupled with the fact that UVa and Duke were pushing for the higher standards for obvious competitive reasons.
I thought for a long time that it was a terrible decision, but it has been mostly rectified by their admission into the SEC. South Carolina has always been more of a football school and I think their fans are thrilled to have had two Hall of Famers coach there and to be in a much better football league. There is no doubt that leaving the ACC killed their basketball program. McGuire was a great recruiter and they didn't go down overnight but gradually faded away as a basketball power in the mid-70's.
One of the main problems they face in the SEC is not having Clemson with them and also the fact that half the teams are in a different time zone, which causes scheduling issues. Maybe the ACC could trade Miami for South Carolina.
I thought for a long time that it was a terrible decision, but it has been mostly rectified by their admission into the SEC. South Carolina has always been more of a football school and I think their fans are thrilled to have had two Hall of Famers coach there and to be in a much better football league. There is no doubt that leaving the ACC killed their basketball program. McGuire was a great recruiter and they didn't go down overnight but gradually faded away as a basketball power in the mid-70's.
One of the main problems they face in the SEC is not having Clemson with them and also the fact that half the teams are in a different time zone, which causes scheduling issues. Maybe the ACC could trade Miami for South Carolina.
Also, strangely enough, in 1972 just after USC left, a federal judge threw out the regulations in question as unconstitutional, but USC was already gone.
Am I the only one who actually likes The U in the ACC and would rather see BC go back to the Big East?
Maybe we could do a three-way trade with the Big East & SEC: BC to the Big East, USC to the ACC, and Louisville to the SEC. That makes tons more sense than the current situation.
Maybe we could do a three-way trade with the Big East & SEC: BC to the Big East, USC to the ACC, and Louisville to the SEC. That makes tons more sense than the current situation.
| SuperJew wrote: |
| Am I the only one who actually likes The U in the ACC? |
Probably. Well, you and John Swofford.
Nice trip down memory lane. I was at NCSU when this team played us. There were the infamous on court scuffles between Dan (the enforcer) Wells (NCS) and Riker. At the time, if you did not win the ACC tournament, you did not go to the dance. State beat them in the ACCT and they were furious.
The entrance rules were tougher in the ACC. That is why Henry Bibby left NC to go play at UCLA which had lesser standards. In time, So Carolina just got fed up, took its basketball and went Independent like Notre Dame.
I guess they prefer the SEC now but it was a great rivalry that will soon be back in football as both UNC and NCSU have USC scheduled in the coming years. But the BB rivalries were awesome at the time.
The entrance rules were tougher in the ACC. That is why Henry Bibby left NC to go play at UCLA which had lesser standards. In time, So Carolina just got fed up, took its basketball and went Independent like Notre Dame.
I guess they prefer the SEC now but it was a great rivalry that will soon be back in football as both UNC and NCSU have USC scheduled in the coming years. But the BB rivalries were awesome at the time.
I hate BC in the conference but the SEC is probably smart enough to see that BC is not a geographic fit for them, unlike the ACC. Let's trade BC for West Virginia. BC and Notre Dame are the two big Catholic schools and I never understood why BC was leaving the Big East, but it could have been even worse. It could have been the 'Cuse.
Boys I am 49 and I vividly remember South Carolina in the ACC. The 1970 ACC tourney loss to NC State remains, to this day, the most crushing defeat in U. of South Carolina sports history (John Roche was hurt - as I am sure you know - or it would never have happened). The Gamecocks were poised to unseat UCLA (first year without Alcindor) as the regional tournament was in Carolina Coliseum in Columbia...but it was not to be. There were absolute wars in the ACC in those days...the hatred was very very personal. Dean once attempted to congratulate Roche on his play after a UNC loss to Cocks in Columbia and Roche (he doesn't deny this)reportedly told Dean he could go "#ck himself. Intense intense basketball and all who saw it will never forget it.
Roche must have paid attention during his Legalistic Rationalization class in law school...
"In a strange or twisted way, the comments that I made to Dean Smith are a reflection of the fact that it sure was hard to beat his teams.”
Thanks for the memories--two friends and I were shooting pool while watching the UNC-USC final in '71. One friend was a major Tar Hole fan, so when the shot went down, he slammed his cue down, jumped in his new VW, and promptly backed into a utility pole. Now he's a Southern Baptist preacher...
Just a note--"the old lefthander" is retired here in Virginia Beach. He's helping with a fundraiser for a local parochial school; he's going to show up and talk basketball.
"In a strange or twisted way, the comments that I made to Dean Smith are a reflection of the fact that it sure was hard to beat his teams.”
Thanks for the memories--two friends and I were shooting pool while watching the UNC-USC final in '71. One friend was a major Tar Hole fan, so when the shot went down, he slammed his cue down, jumped in his new VW, and promptly backed into a utility pole. Now he's a Southern Baptist preacher...
Just a note--"the old lefthander" is retired here in Virginia Beach. He's helping with a fundraiser for a local parochial school; he's going to show up and talk basketball.
Those are excellent comments, Hobie and Ed.
I have a new found respect for Lefty after researching some of this stuff. Along with Dean Smith, Lefty was seeking to integrate basketball in North Carolina, when he was at Davidson.
Whoever got Charlie Scott would win the race, but Lefty has never been recognized for his integration efforts the way Dean Smith has. Then when Lefty got to Maryland he had by far the largest numbers of African-American players on his team in the ACC during the early 1970's. During this same period, Duke had only 1 Black player and UVA and Carolina had very few as well.
Maybe Lefty was just a smart guy who wanted to win, but for whatever reason, both he and the University of Maryland should be commended for integrating their team first and then most fully.
I have a new found respect for Lefty after researching some of this stuff. Along with Dean Smith, Lefty was seeking to integrate basketball in North Carolina, when he was at Davidson.
Whoever got Charlie Scott would win the race, but Lefty has never been recognized for his integration efforts the way Dean Smith has. Then when Lefty got to Maryland he had by far the largest numbers of African-American players on his team in the ACC during the early 1970's. During this same period, Duke had only 1 Black player and UVA and Carolina had very few as well.
Maybe Lefty was just a smart guy who wanted to win, but for whatever reason, both he and the University of Maryland should be commended for integrating their team first and then most fully.
One of the more under rated coaching jobs in NCAA history, in my opinion, is what Lefty did at Davidson College in the 1960s.
ALSO - the 1969 ACC player of the year selection/"situation" is some interesting reading (and I recall it somewhat). John Roche of USC won the award - Dean went ballistic - called it "patently racist" and Charley Scott was, in his understated way, fairly outspoken too about the selection.
This was Roche's sophmore year and Scott's junior year. I respectfully suggest that a case COULD be made for Roche winning the award that year, also could make one for Charley as well...but in my opinion I do not think it was necessarily "patently racist" to select Roche over Scott that particular season. Here almost forty years later clearly Charley was the better professional - but Roche wasn't bad either. AND there was no dispute when Roche won the award again (1970) his junior year and Charley's senior year. Bottom line is this...these two schools and the players did not like one another one bit during this era. Interesting cause Frank McGuire and Dean always professed to "like" one another...but they dang sure had some blood baths from 1969 through 1971. Great (overused word, but not in this instance) memories.
ALSO - the 1969 ACC player of the year selection/"situation" is some interesting reading (and I recall it somewhat). John Roche of USC won the award - Dean went ballistic - called it "patently racist" and Charley Scott was, in his understated way, fairly outspoken too about the selection.
This was Roche's sophmore year and Scott's junior year. I respectfully suggest that a case COULD be made for Roche winning the award that year, also could make one for Charley as well...but in my opinion I do not think it was necessarily "patently racist" to select Roche over Scott that particular season. Here almost forty years later clearly Charley was the better professional - but Roche wasn't bad either. AND there was no dispute when Roche won the award again (1970) his junior year and Charley's senior year. Bottom line is this...these two schools and the players did not like one another one bit during this era. Interesting cause Frank McGuire and Dean always professed to "like" one another...but they dang sure had some blood baths from 1969 through 1971. Great (overused word, but not in this instance) memories.
Thanks William; and Hobie... Great minds think alike. My dad is 83, and when we talk about the late 60s, early 70s, Davidson bball is one of our favorite topics.
I watched Davidson and "The College of Knowledge" yesterday. The similarities between then and now are eerie. Then and now, give me a team of hardworking overachievers rather than the primadonas. They looked as if they could have handled, oh, say UVa or WFU with ease.
Last but not least, John Kilgo interviewed Dick Snyder, and it's posted on the Davidson web site. Later guys.[/i]
I watched Davidson and "The College of Knowledge" yesterday. The similarities between then and now are eerie. Then and now, give me a team of hardworking overachievers rather than the primadonas. They looked as if they could have handled, oh, say UVa or WFU with ease.
Last but not least, John Kilgo interviewed Dick Snyder, and it's posted on the Davidson web site. Later guys.[/i]
You are right Hobie and I have recently written something basically saying the same thing that you are. Regardless, John Roche was an outstanding college player and a pretty good ABA'er to boot, and had nothing to do with the outcome. What really angered Smith, though, was the fact that several ACC sportswriters left Scott entirely off their ballots for All ACC, which would be akin to leaving Grant Hill or Michael Jordan off. That does have to be due to racism.
What really angered Smith, though, was the fact that several ACC sportswriters left Scott entirely off their ballots for All ACC, which would be akin to leaving Grant Hill or Michael Jordan off. That does have to be due to racism.
I concur with Dean Smith and William. Love this "Dave sez" location.
I concur with Dean Smith and William. Love this "Dave sez" location.
| Hobie Jones wrote: |
| Love this "Dave sez" location. |
We love you too!
Why don't you register?
They might not have been good for the country, but the Nixon years were my favorite in the conference's history. From 1969, until 1975 when they greatly expanded the NCAA, the ACC tournament was on fire. Every single ACC title game during those years was a classic and boy, the rivalries were thick.
State and Carolina and Maryland and USC were by far the teams that dominated this period and none of those four teams got along at all. If you think yesterday was bad between Duke and Carolina, take another look at the picture we posted of the fight between Maryland and USC.
The South Carolina State newspaper claims that one USC guy is trying to restrain Lefty--yeah, restrain him so that Ribock can punch his lights out. And Frank McGuire's response is a classic: "I think that Lefty must have punched himself." Here's a link for some more on Lefty:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,903710-1,00.html
If you look at those years:
1969: Carolina and Charles Scott make a great comeback to thwart Duke. Scott scores 40 points after Carolina's point guard is injured and cannot play, and makes 12-13 from the field in the second half and Carolina erases a double-digit margin in the last few minutes to win going away.
1970: the famous 2OT State-USC game.
1971: the infamous Kevin Joyce jump ball game
1972: Dean thwarts Lefty and the UCLA of the East for the first time.
1973: State edges Maryland to become the 2nd ACC to go undefeated.
1974: 103-100. OT. 'Nuff said.
State and Carolina and Maryland and USC were by far the teams that dominated this period and none of those four teams got along at all. If you think yesterday was bad between Duke and Carolina, take another look at the picture we posted of the fight between Maryland and USC.
The South Carolina State newspaper claims that one USC guy is trying to restrain Lefty--yeah, restrain him so that Ribock can punch his lights out. And Frank McGuire's response is a classic: "I think that Lefty must have punched himself." Here's a link for some more on Lefty:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,903710-1,00.html
If you look at those years:
1969: Carolina and Charles Scott make a great comeback to thwart Duke. Scott scores 40 points after Carolina's point guard is injured and cannot play, and makes 12-13 from the field in the second half and Carolina erases a double-digit margin in the last few minutes to win going away.
1970: the famous 2OT State-USC game.
1971: the infamous Kevin Joyce jump ball game
1972: Dean thwarts Lefty and the UCLA of the East for the first time.
1973: State edges Maryland to become the 2nd ACC to go undefeated.
1974: 103-100. OT. 'Nuff said.
I know it took me a while to get around to it. Dave, you should post somewhere about how easy it is to register. It usually isn't like that, but yours literally took 20 seconds and the benefits then became clear.
| william wrote: |
|
Whoever got Charlie Scott would win the race, but Lefty has never been recognized for his integration efforts the way Dean Smith has. |
Or lose it. Charlie Scott wasn't the first black player in the ACC, or at a Big Four school. He was the first great black player in the ACC.
No, Ramar, We covered that. That was the point of the posts a few above this. The race was to see whether Davidson or UNC would integrate their team first.
Maryland was the first team to integrate its team at all, i.e., having one player, but even more importantly, Maryland was the first team in the ACC to fully integrate its team.
During the early 1970's when Duke only had 1 black player out of 15 on the team, Maryland's team was over half African-American.
As I said before, Kudos to the University of Maryland and kudos to Lefty.
I don't believe that he has ever received proper recognition for this achievement, the way that Dean Smith has.
Maryland was the first team to integrate its team at all, i.e., having one player, but even more importantly, Maryland was the first team in the ACC to fully integrate its team.
During the early 1970's when Duke only had 1 black player out of 15 on the team, Maryland's team was over half African-American.
As I said before, Kudos to the University of Maryland and kudos to Lefty.
I don't believe that he has ever received proper recognition for this achievement, the way that Dean Smith has.
For an interesting John Roche story google the following (this appeared in the Denver paper about ten days ago). He looks pretty good for 57-58.
"John Roche Denver fitness"
"John Roche Denver fitness"
Thanks. He is starting to get that creepy John Delorean look that some men get at that age.
| HobieJones wrote: |
| For an interesting John Roche story google the following (this appeared in the Denver paper about ten days ago). He looks pretty good for 57-58.
"John Roche Denver fitness" |
http://www.denverpost.com/fitness/ci_5294867
It's great to see a former pro athlete who's not limping around or crippled by arthritis. Sounds like Roche is just as competitive as ever.
Thanks for the heads up on the Lefty article, William. I remember that time well.
As for the Roche info, you get a pass on the "men at that age" remark by preceding it with "...creepy John Delorean look." Funny stuff! Sounds like I need to get me some of that Bikram yoga.
One last thought--can any of the Dave Sez faithful imagine any player in the NBA today going to law school in the off season? Needing a lawyer, maybe...
As for the Roche info, you get a pass on the "men at that age" remark by preceding it with "...creepy John Delorean look." Funny stuff! Sounds like I need to get me some of that Bikram yoga.
One last thought--can any of the Dave Sez faithful imagine any player in the NBA today going to law school in the off season? Needing a lawyer, maybe...
As an alumnus of GMU Law, that is an interesting question because I try to keep track of lawyer/athletes. Jay Bilas of Duke got his law degree, but that was right after undergrad. I think that he probably could have played in Europe, but I don't think he ever played pro ball.
Maryland's Len Elmore got a law degree from Harvard in 1987, so I guess that was after his NBA career. I am a big fan of heady players and Maryland had him, future coach John Lucas and future Congressman and Rhode Scholar, Tom McMillen on the same team! And they weren't bad on the court, either.
Carolina had two pretty good players forego pro careers to study medicine. Both Rusty Clark and Steve Hale had Coach Dean Smith inform the NBA that they were not going to participate in the Draft. Both are successful doctors today. Anybody else aware of noted ACC players or NBA players with law or medical degrees? Please let us know.
Maryland's Len Elmore got a law degree from Harvard in 1987, so I guess that was after his NBA career. I am a big fan of heady players and Maryland had him, future coach John Lucas and future Congressman and Rhode Scholar, Tom McMillen on the same team! And they weren't bad on the court, either.
Carolina had two pretty good players forego pro careers to study medicine. Both Rusty Clark and Steve Hale had Coach Dean Smith inform the NBA that they were not going to participate in the Draft. Both are successful doctors today. Anybody else aware of noted ACC players or NBA players with law or medical degrees? Please let us know.
| Ed-Hoo wrote: |
| One last thought--can any of the Dave Sez faithful imagine any player in the NBA today going to law school in the off season? Needing a lawyer, maybe... |
Not NBA, but Steve Young got a law degree while in the NFL.
Larry Hopkins was a running back at WFU who graduated in '71 and eventually went to med school. He's the only other one who comes to mind...
Rusty Clark was a Morehead Scholar (the top academic ride) at UNC, so that was a scholarship Dean could use on someone else.
Two others from the NFL--Allen Page went to Minnesota Law and is now on the Minnesota Supreme Court. And let's not forget the old Gator, Cris Collinsworth who graduated from Florida Law. Now you know why my wife calls me, "a font of useless information."
Back before the earth cooled, I was hoping to go to law school. But, when your BAC is higher than your GPA...
Rusty Clark was a Morehead Scholar (the top academic ride) at UNC, so that was a scholarship Dean could use on someone else.
Two others from the NFL--Allen Page went to Minnesota Law and is now on the Minnesota Supreme Court. And let's not forget the old Gator, Cris Collinsworth who graduated from Florida Law. Now you know why my wife calls me, "a font of useless information."
Back before the earth cooled, I was hoping to go to law school. But, when your BAC is higher than your GPA...
A certain ACC basketball coach recently finished his college degree while coaching in the NBA.
Does that count?
Does that count?
other law degree sportsmen that come to mind...Dean had a bunch of them, by the way:
Tony LaRussa
Terry Bowden
Derek Dooley (Vince's son, former Wahoo WR, new head coach at Louisiana Tech (?))...Derek's story is funny; he practiced law for a couple of years in a major Atlanta law firm but got frustrated (imagine that) because it seemed "no one was trying to accomplish anything or conclude anything"...in an interview said he wanted to get back to athletics where hard work would, more often than not, end with a reward; unlike practicing law where the result of hard work was often stall and/or delay.
I am paraphrasing him somewhat...but that was essentially what he said in a published interview shortly after leaving the profession. I was impressed by his insight. He should be about 37, 38 now.
Posted by Dave at February 7, 2007 10:16 AM
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Tony LaRussa
Terry Bowden
Derek Dooley (Vince's son, former Wahoo WR, new head coach at Louisiana Tech (?))...Derek's story is funny; he practiced law for a couple of years in a major Atlanta law firm but got frustrated (imagine that) because it seemed "no one was trying to accomplish anything or conclude anything"...in an interview said he wanted to get back to athletics where hard work would, more often than not, end with a reward; unlike practicing law where the result of hard work was often stall and/or delay.
I am paraphrasing him somewhat...but that was essentially what he said in a published interview shortly after leaving the profession. I was impressed by his insight. He should be about 37, 38 now.
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