March 02, 2007
The First Place Cavaliers
Now there's a title I didn't expect to be using anytime soon. At least not in reference to men's basketball. But there you go. After last night's outstanding win over Virginia Tech and Georgia Tech's dismantling of UNC, Virginia is all alone in first place. Even if they lose their final game, the worst that can happen is a share of the regular season title. Don't confuse ACC Tournament seeding with the regular season title; if you finish on top, even in a tie, you were the regular season champs.
For a bit of history, consider that Virginia has finished the ACC season in first place exactly four times before this year. In 53 prior seasons, four first place finishes. Three of those were during the Ralph Sampson years of 1981-83. The most recent time was 1995, when four teams finished tied at the top. Of those four times, only once did the Cavs hold the position outright (1981, when they finished 13-1).
This is historic.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Virginia is a great team or even that they're the best in the ACC. This squad isn't nearly as good as those past regular season champs. They may not be overwhelming and they may not be pretty, but damn if they don't keep winning games. Maryland beat UNC and swept Duke; Virginia swept Maryland. Virginia Tech swept Carolina and won in Cameron; Virginia split with the Hokies. Georgia Tech also notched wins over both Carolina and Duke (I guess everyone has taken a Blue Devil scalp this year); the Cavs topped the Jackets last weekend. You can't accidentally win 11 games in the ACC.
One other matter should have been settled last night - ACC Coach of the Year. It has to be Dave Leitao. Has to be. Like I said, this isn't a great squad. They are terribly flawed. Yes, they have an excellent backcourt with two players worthy of All-ACC selection, but neither are perfect. Sean Singletary coasts at times and turns the ball over too much. JR Reynolds has below-average athleticism for his position. The rest of the team is filled with good-but-not-really-good players. You never know who the third or fourth player is going to be in any game. Oddly, the team is deep, but Coach Leitao just never knows who is going to step up to support the guards. Yet somehow, like Jim Grobe did for Wake Forest in football, Leitao has navigated the league better than everyone else. Ken Pomeroy's equations say the Cavaliers are the ninth best team in the ACC.
The standings say they are in first.
Comments
Leitao's done an awesome job instilling intensity and conditioning. The ACC only has one really great team, but it is extremely deep this year with nine NCAA biddle teams. Our first (second round) ACC tourney game could be against a 22-win team!
We're really going to miss JR and Cain next year. If AJ learns to hit something other than a set shot, and Diane regains his early season form, we could be tough again.
We're really going to miss JR and Cain next year. If AJ learns to hit something other than a set shot, and Diane regains his early season form, we could be tough again.
Great post, Dave. I know this UVA team doesn't look great on paper and all season I kept expecting them to go on a five-game slide, but they just don't. They stay in the game, stay calm, and just keep winning -- in a word, "Scoreboard".
Maybe I am overexcited, but I can't help but think about Jeff Jones' team in the mid-90's (1995 Dance?) that beat 1-seed (?) Kansas to advance to the elite eight. They weren't a great team and they looked real ugly on the floor, but they made other teams look even uglier.
Am I betting the house on UVA to win either (ACC or NCAA) tournament? Absolutely not, but I see no reason that we can't win some games in both. In fact, I think it's likely that we do.
Maybe I am overexcited, but I can't help but think about Jeff Jones' team in the mid-90's (1995 Dance?) that beat 1-seed (?) Kansas to advance to the elite eight. They weren't a great team and they looked real ugly on the floor, but they made other teams look even uglier.
Am I betting the house on UVA to win either (ACC or NCAA) tournament? Absolutely not, but I see no reason that we can't win some games in both. In fact, I think it's likely that we do.
| Matt wrote: |
| Maybe I am overexcited, but I can't help but think about Jeff Jones' team in the mid-90's (1995 Dance?) that beat 1-seed (?) Kansas to advance to the elite eight. They weren't a great team and they looked real ugly on the floor, but they made other teams look even uglier. |
Yeah, that was '95, but that was a more well-rounded team. They had Cory Alexander and Harold Deane in the backcourt and Junior Burrough up front. Burrough really found his game the last half of that year. I absolutely loved watching him go to work, especially against Kansas' giant frontline. He tore them up.
But this team has been a lot of fun as well. This must be what it's like to be a Carolina or Duke fan! Well, sorta.
| Ralph Sampson wrote: |
| Dave,
Still have them on the bubble or a #10 seed in the NCAAs? -Ralph |
Nope! They are finally to the point where they could lose the rest of their games and still get in. I wasn't completely convinced that was the case until last night.
Their seed is an interesting question. Joe Lunardi has them as a 4, but their power ratings don't support that. I suspect he's close, but depending on how things go in the last few games, I'd expect something like 5-7. A 4 would be nice though!
Both Wake in football and UVa's success this year in basketball are a product of the conference expansion. I don't hate the Cavaliers. They have a lot to be proud of, but like Wake in football, I still don't find what Uva has done to be particularly impressive.(By the way, uva means grape in Spanish and Thomas Jefferson was really into wine, think it is a coincidence?)
I am a UNC grad, but this isn't sour grapes. As soon as UVa beats somebody really good I will jump on the bandwagon. I was the one who brought up the 1984 team, although I meant that to indicate how much of a factor luck is, compared to Ralph and Raker and company, who always seemed one bounce away. Honestly, I do not think that this Uva team is as good as the Cavaliers from the mid-70's who had Iavaroni and Wally Walker. I am barely in my 40's--am I already becoming one of those people who think everything from the past was better?
Duke beat Georgetown. Carolina beat Ohio State and blasted Tennessee and Arizona away from Chapel Hill. Virginia Tech beat Carolina twice, once on the road. UVa has beaten Maryland twice and Duke at home. That's decent, but its not anything to get real excited about since both of those teams have six losses in conference. Just give me something to grab hold of. Just as I was with Wake's 9-6 triumph in the ACC football title game, I am still a little underwhelmed.
I mean are you saying the Cavalier basketball has been that bad? Because I don't think it has. Since the Barry Parkhill days, UVA has been quite decent, with peaks and valleys here and there.
Maybe this team will ended up doing something really memorable.
The way I see it, they just haven't yet.
And Wake Forest is better than Miami, so I still wouldn't start counting any chickens before they hatch....
I am a UNC grad, but this isn't sour grapes. As soon as UVa beats somebody really good I will jump on the bandwagon. I was the one who brought up the 1984 team, although I meant that to indicate how much of a factor luck is, compared to Ralph and Raker and company, who always seemed one bounce away. Honestly, I do not think that this Uva team is as good as the Cavaliers from the mid-70's who had Iavaroni and Wally Walker. I am barely in my 40's--am I already becoming one of those people who think everything from the past was better?
Duke beat Georgetown. Carolina beat Ohio State and blasted Tennessee and Arizona away from Chapel Hill. Virginia Tech beat Carolina twice, once on the road. UVa has beaten Maryland twice and Duke at home. That's decent, but its not anything to get real excited about since both of those teams have six losses in conference. Just give me something to grab hold of. Just as I was with Wake's 9-6 triumph in the ACC football title game, I am still a little underwhelmed.
I mean are you saying the Cavalier basketball has been that bad? Because I don't think it has. Since the Barry Parkhill days, UVA has been quite decent, with peaks and valleys here and there.
Maybe this team will ended up doing something really memorable.
The way I see it, they just haven't yet.
And Wake Forest is better than Miami, so I still wouldn't start counting any chickens before they hatch....
| william wrote: |
| Duke beat Georgetown. Carolina beat Ohio State and blasted Tennessee and Arizona away from Chapel Hill. Virginia Tech beat Carolina twice, once on the road. UVa has beaten Maryland twice and Duke at home. That's decent, but its not anything to get real excited about since both of those teams have six losses in conference. |
Virginia also beat Virginia Tech, Clemson, Florida State and Georgia Tech. Arizona and Gonzaga too.
None of those teams are outstanding, but none are slouches either (and the two Techs have three wins over Carolina). Each of those teams, except Gonzaga, has a Pomeroy rating higher than Tennessee's 37. UVA played UNC and BC only once each, but both on the road. They lost in Chapel Hill by 4 and in Chestnut Hill by 5.
By your definition, since nearly every team in the league has at least 6 losses, almost no wins are good.
| william wrote: |
| And Wake Forest is better than Miami, so I still wouldn't start counting any chickens before they hatch.... |
I'm not counting that as a win yet, but even a loss leaves UVA with at worst a tie for the regular season title. I can live with that.
On a further note, since you mention Pomeroy.
You can't tell how good anybody is from the standings now that they have eliminated the round robin. For instance, say you only have to play Duke once. They would normally be a positive, right? But let's say that the one game is at Durham. Now is it more of a positive to only have them once or is it expunged by the factor of having to play them at Cameron. It is impossible to know. I think this is one of the reason's that Pomeroy and Sagrin have begun to be cited as much as the wire services, because the league standings now mean zero.
I think that it is an utter joke that the conference tiebreaker is head-to-head when the teams involved only played once. Wake had the tiebreaker in 2005 by beating Carolina in Winston the only time the teams met. And I say this realizing that Carolina holds the tiebreaker over UVa this year. It is isn't fair to UVa because they might have beaten Carolina in Charlottesville.
I do think that it is likely that UVa would have lost 3 out of 4 to UNC and Duke had they played them both twice. At best, they probably would have drawn, winning two and losing two, which still would have been worse than going 1 and 1 against the two traditional powers and replacing them with whoever else, all of whom are less highly rated by Pomeroy.
It is time to boot Miami and BC out of the conference and go back to the round robin. It is not as though expansion has helped the ACC any in football, given that no league teams finished in the top 15.
You can't tell how good anybody is from the standings now that they have eliminated the round robin. For instance, say you only have to play Duke once. They would normally be a positive, right? But let's say that the one game is at Durham. Now is it more of a positive to only have them once or is it expunged by the factor of having to play them at Cameron. It is impossible to know. I think this is one of the reason's that Pomeroy and Sagrin have begun to be cited as much as the wire services, because the league standings now mean zero.
I think that it is an utter joke that the conference tiebreaker is head-to-head when the teams involved only played once. Wake had the tiebreaker in 2005 by beating Carolina in Winston the only time the teams met. And I say this realizing that Carolina holds the tiebreaker over UVa this year. It is isn't fair to UVa because they might have beaten Carolina in Charlottesville.
I do think that it is likely that UVa would have lost 3 out of 4 to UNC and Duke had they played them both twice. At best, they probably would have drawn, winning two and losing two, which still would have been worse than going 1 and 1 against the two traditional powers and replacing them with whoever else, all of whom are less highly rated by Pomeroy.
It is time to boot Miami and BC out of the conference and go back to the round robin. It is not as though expansion has helped the ACC any in football, given that no league teams finished in the top 15.
| william wrote: |
| On a further note, since you mention Pomeroy.
You can't tell how good anybody is from the standings now that they have eliminated the round robin. For instance, say you only have to play Duke once. They would normally be a positive, right? But let's say that the one game is at Durham. Now is it more of a positive to only have them once or is it expunged by the factor of having to play them at Cameron. It is impossible to know. I think this is one of the reason's that Pomeroy and Sagrin have begun to be cited as much as the wire services, because the league standings now mean zero. I think that it is an utter joke that the conference tiebreaker is head-to-head when the teams involved only played once. Wake had the tiebreaker in 2005 by beating Carolina in Winston the only time the teams met. And I say this realizing that Carolina holds the tiebreaker over UVa this year. It is isn't fair to UVa because they might have beaten Carolina in Charlottesville. I do think that it is likely that UVa would have lost 3 out of 4 to UNC and Duke had they played them both twice. At best, they probably would have drawn, winning two and losing two, which still would have been worse than going 1 and 1 against the two traditional powers and replacing them with whoever else, all of whom are less highly rated by Pomeroy. It is time to boot Miami and BC out of the conference and go back to the round robin. It is not as though expansion has helped the ACC any in football, given that no league teams finished in the top 15. |
Agreed
I am sure that Uva fans will not lose any more sleep over my failure to be impressed by their team than did my brother-in-law who went to Wake concerning their football team.
I know Uva beat Gonzaga and Arizona in Charlottesville. They also lost to Stanford in Charlottesville. I know they had a couple of impressive conference wins to go with their thumpings at the hand of Miami and Virginia Tech and their demolition by ASU and Utah.
To me, an impressive win is one over a highly ranked team, regardless of location, or a win over any ranked team on the road. I don't see that Uva has done either of those things.
I agree with one of the posters about the mid-90's UVa team being far better than this bunch. Major league baseball used to have two pennant races. Now they have six and two wildcards, but I don't see that as meaning Detroit was as good last year as they were in 1968. You seem to be placing a lot of weight on this mythical ACC title where the teams haven't even played the same teams.
Carolina and Uva played three times in 1981 and 1982, and those teams were nearly equal. That would have been a completely different matter if the Heels had only played at Charlottesville in 1982, where they got stomped. But I mean, what do I care, lol, if it makes all of you Uva and Wake guys feel special, then you've won me over.
How's this:
Wake's football team this year was spectacular. The way they mowed down the opposition was amazing. They simply stomped their fellow NC teams, Carolina, Duke and State into the ground. Many of the Duke players were heard to have said that they had never seen such an amalgamation of talent like that of the 2006 Wake Forest football Deacons. Clearly, Duke never even had a chance that day against Wake, nor did NC State or Carolina when they went down in equally convincing fashions before the Deacon demolition crew.
One Carolina defensive back was heard afterwards to softly sob: "Lawdy, lawdy, dey's great. We ain't never had a chance against dem Demon Deacons. Dey's too smart and too tough for we State University boys."
When the Wake team took the field against the Yellow Jackets of Georgia Tech, it was just more of the same. Combine the brains of the second best Baptist University in the country, with the brawn of a NYC stevedore and you had the 2006 Deacs.
Shed a tear for a Georgia Tech team that never really had a chance as Wake offensive players marched up and down the field in Wake's spectacular 9-6 victory. Many of the fans who were at the game were simply shocked by the rugged brutality of the Deacon team, and the amazing offensive originality that they showed in lighting up the scoreboard that day. Certainly neither,the Steel Curtain nor Peyton Manning and the Colts had anything on this bunch.
Uva's basketball team is equally amazing. Last night's win involved a special combination of amazing athletic prowess and expert strategy by the man on the sideline. Dave Leitao, who is clearly the smartest man to ever coach in the ACC and whose achievements this year simply dwarf any of those of the two Williams and Coach K.
Several opponents have been equally astounded by UVa. After the Cavs's game in Miami, many of the Hurricanes wondered out loud how Uva could have possibly lost 8 times this year. It just didn't seem possible.
After defeating their rivals by 27 in Blacksburg, VPI's Seth Greenberg was heard to admit just how lucky his team had been. "Those weren't the real Cavaliers," he said.
A member of the ASU Mountaineers compared their achievement in upseting Uva in December to that of Chaminade back in the 80's. It just didn't seem possible for little ASU to topple this juggernaut of a team who would go on to be ACC regular season champions. Incredibly but true, ASU had done it, achieving one of the greatest upsets in the history of basketball.
Duke came away especially disappointed after their loss in Charlottesville. "What can you do," said Coach K. "They had this game the whole way. We never really had a chance. I mean, we thought that Clemson was good, but Uva is even better than Clemson and I will stand by that statement." Coach K went on to say, "I would be shocked if this Uva team is not one of the top 32 teams in the country."
I know Uva beat Gonzaga and Arizona in Charlottesville. They also lost to Stanford in Charlottesville. I know they had a couple of impressive conference wins to go with their thumpings at the hand of Miami and Virginia Tech and their demolition by ASU and Utah.
To me, an impressive win is one over a highly ranked team, regardless of location, or a win over any ranked team on the road. I don't see that Uva has done either of those things.
I agree with one of the posters about the mid-90's UVa team being far better than this bunch. Major league baseball used to have two pennant races. Now they have six and two wildcards, but I don't see that as meaning Detroit was as good last year as they were in 1968. You seem to be placing a lot of weight on this mythical ACC title where the teams haven't even played the same teams.
Carolina and Uva played three times in 1981 and 1982, and those teams were nearly equal. That would have been a completely different matter if the Heels had only played at Charlottesville in 1982, where they got stomped. But I mean, what do I care, lol, if it makes all of you Uva and Wake guys feel special, then you've won me over.
How's this:
Wake's football team this year was spectacular. The way they mowed down the opposition was amazing. They simply stomped their fellow NC teams, Carolina, Duke and State into the ground. Many of the Duke players were heard to have said that they had never seen such an amalgamation of talent like that of the 2006 Wake Forest football Deacons. Clearly, Duke never even had a chance that day against Wake, nor did NC State or Carolina when they went down in equally convincing fashions before the Deacon demolition crew.
One Carolina defensive back was heard afterwards to softly sob: "Lawdy, lawdy, dey's great. We ain't never had a chance against dem Demon Deacons. Dey's too smart and too tough for we State University boys."
When the Wake team took the field against the Yellow Jackets of Georgia Tech, it was just more of the same. Combine the brains of the second best Baptist University in the country, with the brawn of a NYC stevedore and you had the 2006 Deacs.
Shed a tear for a Georgia Tech team that never really had a chance as Wake offensive players marched up and down the field in Wake's spectacular 9-6 victory. Many of the fans who were at the game were simply shocked by the rugged brutality of the Deacon team, and the amazing offensive originality that they showed in lighting up the scoreboard that day. Certainly neither,the Steel Curtain nor Peyton Manning and the Colts had anything on this bunch.
Uva's basketball team is equally amazing. Last night's win involved a special combination of amazing athletic prowess and expert strategy by the man on the sideline. Dave Leitao, who is clearly the smartest man to ever coach in the ACC and whose achievements this year simply dwarf any of those of the two Williams and Coach K.
Several opponents have been equally astounded by UVa. After the Cavs's game in Miami, many of the Hurricanes wondered out loud how Uva could have possibly lost 8 times this year. It just didn't seem possible.
After defeating their rivals by 27 in Blacksburg, VPI's Seth Greenberg was heard to admit just how lucky his team had been. "Those weren't the real Cavaliers," he said.
A member of the ASU Mountaineers compared their achievement in upseting Uva in December to that of Chaminade back in the 80's. It just didn't seem possible for little ASU to topple this juggernaut of a team who would go on to be ACC regular season champions. Incredibly but true, ASU had done it, achieving one of the greatest upsets in the history of basketball.
Duke came away especially disappointed after their loss in Charlottesville. "What can you do," said Coach K. "They had this game the whole way. We never really had a chance. I mean, we thought that Clemson was good, but Uva is even better than Clemson and I will stand by that statement." Coach K went on to say, "I would be shocked if this Uva team is not one of the top 32 teams in the country."
I find the criticism of the Hoos a bit disingenuous. This team struggled early (especially in Puerto Rico). These horrible losses have (in the critic's view) overshadowed the last 10 games.
The committee understands that basketball teams mature during a season. They do weight the last 10 games, and thus I expect a reasonable seed.
The computer rankings give us some information, but they do not tell us whether a team has great character. What the rankings do not reflect is the never give up attitude of this team.
The Hoos always believe that the can win. As I recall the great ACC teams in the past, the ability to overcome adversity is always there.
Simply put, this team is tough. You cannot always understand how they win, but they do win. You can call it luck, but if that is so, I love luck. I believe that we have a veteran team that has learned how to win.
Regardless, all critics must recognize the great job that Dave Leitao has done this year. He has made us a strong defensive team, a strong rebounding team and a great 3 point shooting team. We are in great shape and have won multiple games down the stretch with the opponent running out of gas!
How far will this team go in the tournaments? Will we beat Wake? These are interesting questions to ponder, but we must never lose sight of the great achievement this team has already accomplished. They are the only team to win all 8 home ACC games.
Whether you respect us or not is your problem not ours. We love this team, their attitude, their never say die attitude and how they handle themselves on the court.
Go Hoos!!!!!
The committee understands that basketball teams mature during a season. They do weight the last 10 games, and thus I expect a reasonable seed.
The computer rankings give us some information, but they do not tell us whether a team has great character. What the rankings do not reflect is the never give up attitude of this team.
The Hoos always believe that the can win. As I recall the great ACC teams in the past, the ability to overcome adversity is always there.
Simply put, this team is tough. You cannot always understand how they win, but they do win. You can call it luck, but if that is so, I love luck. I believe that we have a veteran team that has learned how to win.
Regardless, all critics must recognize the great job that Dave Leitao has done this year. He has made us a strong defensive team, a strong rebounding team and a great 3 point shooting team. We are in great shape and have won multiple games down the stretch with the opponent running out of gas!
How far will this team go in the tournaments? Will we beat Wake? These are interesting questions to ponder, but we must never lose sight of the great achievement this team has already accomplished. They are the only team to win all 8 home ACC games.
Whether you respect us or not is your problem not ours. We love this team, their attitude, their never say die attitude and how they handle themselves on the court.
Go Hoos!!!!!
But I mean, what do I care, lol, if it makes all of you Uva and Wake guys feel special, then you've won me over.
That seems a bit much. It's been a rough few years for UVa - I can't really fault them for being excited about returning to respectability in dramatic fashion.
That seems a bit much. It's been a rough few years for UVa - I can't really fault them for being excited about returning to respectability in dramatic fashion.
Yes, but that was only last Wednesday that they lost to Miami and it was only two weeks ago that they lost by 27 in Blacksburg.
William,
UVa's got to start somewhere, dude. Did you see how bad this group was under Pete Gillen? Did you see the Duke game a few years back when Duke won by 30+?
UVa fans have been looking something, anything to be happy about. So you'll pardon us UVa grads/fans for not looking a gift horse in the mouth. Let's be real here: UVa's history hasn't been as good as UNC or Duke. We all know that. This UVa team isn't even one of the 5 best UVa teams all-time. I'd take all four Sampson teams and the Junior Burrough/Cory Alexander 'Hoos over this squad.
But what you can't measure is heart. These guys gut out wins. They grind 'em out of nothing. Duke couldn't score 15 unanswered on Clemson to win without a b.s. clock error to help them, and that was at home. Arizona walked into JPJ with a #10 ranking and a big-time freshman who scored at will in the first half: they play TWO halves in college hoops, Chase Budinger. The Hokies demolished us in Blacksburg, but then Jamon Gordon's game turned into a broken cocktail weenie and Dowdell scored 2 of his 17 after intermission: this isn't happening because UVa got an easy schedule this year.
A lot has been written about how UVa's gotten off light with the scheduling, and I have to say this: feasting off the middle and bottom of the ACC is what first-division ACC teams do. No one at UVa expects them to advance in the NCAA tourney as far as UNC, but maybe that's why UNC has shrivelled up inside its own butt lately. But, thanks to UNC and Duke fans, one thing's for sure: every game that UVa's won since, oh, about victory #16 or #17, we're playing with house money.
Let it ride.
UVa's got to start somewhere, dude. Did you see how bad this group was under Pete Gillen? Did you see the Duke game a few years back when Duke won by 30+?
UVa fans have been looking something, anything to be happy about. So you'll pardon us UVa grads/fans for not looking a gift horse in the mouth. Let's be real here: UVa's history hasn't been as good as UNC or Duke. We all know that. This UVa team isn't even one of the 5 best UVa teams all-time. I'd take all four Sampson teams and the Junior Burrough/Cory Alexander 'Hoos over this squad.
But what you can't measure is heart. These guys gut out wins. They grind 'em out of nothing. Duke couldn't score 15 unanswered on Clemson to win without a b.s. clock error to help them, and that was at home. Arizona walked into JPJ with a #10 ranking and a big-time freshman who scored at will in the first half: they play TWO halves in college hoops, Chase Budinger. The Hokies demolished us in Blacksburg, but then Jamon Gordon's game turned into a broken cocktail weenie and Dowdell scored 2 of his 17 after intermission: this isn't happening because UVa got an easy schedule this year.
A lot has been written about how UVa's gotten off light with the scheduling, and I have to say this: feasting off the middle and bottom of the ACC is what first-division ACC teams do. No one at UVa expects them to advance in the NCAA tourney as far as UNC, but maybe that's why UNC has shrivelled up inside its own butt lately. But, thanks to UNC and Duke fans, one thing's for sure: every game that UVa's won since, oh, about victory #16 or #17, we're playing with house money.
Let it ride.
I will grant you that this team has heart, especially Jason Cain(raised an Abel?). Here's an article on them.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/02/AR2007030201499.html
My attempt is not to disparge them. My goal is simply to inform. I honestly don't think that a lot of people realize that with the demise of the round robin format that the conference standings amount to little more than smoke and mirrors. One of the original reasons that the Southern Conference had a basketball tournament was because they did not play a round robin format back then and a tournament was the only way to choose a champion fairly. Once they had the round robin in the ACC, they should have dropped the tournament, but Everett Case at NC State was from Indiana and was a huge fan of tournaments like the Indiana HS tournament. Once the ACC tournament was ingrained it was impossible to get rid of it.
I think that the following quote from today's Washington Post is something we can all appreciate:
"While the Cavaliers readied themselves for what would be a historic turnaround, it's worth noting that Virginia played the easiest schedule in the ACC, as it was the only team to play bottom-feeders North Carolina State, Miami and Wake Forest twice. But if the Cavaliers can hang a conference championship banner in the expansive rafters of John Paul Jones Arena, that won't be remembered."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/02/AR2007030201499.html
My attempt is not to disparge them. My goal is simply to inform. I honestly don't think that a lot of people realize that with the demise of the round robin format that the conference standings amount to little more than smoke and mirrors. One of the original reasons that the Southern Conference had a basketball tournament was because they did not play a round robin format back then and a tournament was the only way to choose a champion fairly. Once they had the round robin in the ACC, they should have dropped the tournament, but Everett Case at NC State was from Indiana and was a huge fan of tournaments like the Indiana HS tournament. Once the ACC tournament was ingrained it was impossible to get rid of it.
I think that the following quote from today's Washington Post is something we can all appreciate:
"While the Cavaliers readied themselves for what would be a historic turnaround, it's worth noting that Virginia played the easiest schedule in the ACC, as it was the only team to play bottom-feeders North Carolina State, Miami and Wake Forest twice. But if the Cavaliers can hang a conference championship banner in the expansive rafters of John Paul Jones Arena, that won't be remembered."
Dave, you are right about people confusing seeding with winning the championship, but I believe the reason for that is that historically, whoever won the ACC tournament championship was the offical ACC Basketball Champion.
For instance, in my 1972 ACC tournament manual, it has South Carolina listed as 1971 Men's Basketball Champions, together with a picture of the team and staff, along with the North Carolina Men's Tennis Team, and North Carolina's Men's Fencing, etc., but there is no listing for Men's Regular Season Basketball Champions.
My question is whether there even is something that the conference recognizes as "ACC Regular Season Champion." I mean we can all look at the standings and see who finished first or tied for first and I guess any team can have a banner printed up, but does anyone know if the Atlantic Coast Conference officially recognizes the existence of a "Regular Season Champion?"
For instance, in my 1972 ACC tournament manual, it has South Carolina listed as 1971 Men's Basketball Champions, together with a picture of the team and staff, along with the North Carolina Men's Tennis Team, and North Carolina's Men's Fencing, etc., but there is no listing for Men's Regular Season Basketball Champions.
My question is whether there even is something that the conference recognizes as "ACC Regular Season Champion." I mean we can all look at the standings and see who finished first or tied for first and I guess any team can have a banner printed up, but does anyone know if the Atlantic Coast Conference officially recognizes the existence of a "Regular Season Champion?"
| william wrote: |
| My question is whether there even is something that the conference recognizes as "ACC Regular Season Champion." I mean we can all look at the standings and see who finished first or tied for first and I guess any team can have a banner printed up, but does anyone know if the Atlantic Coast Conference officially recognizes the existence of a "Regular Season Champion?" |
I almost mentioned that in my article, but didn't have time to look it up. For most of its history, the ACC Champions were the tournament champions. There was no official recognition of the regular season champions. I believe (and this is the part I didn't look up) that this changed somewhat recently. I think the ACC does now recognize both, although the tournament champ is still the official ACC Champion.
"While the Cavaliers readied themselves for what would be a historic turnaround, it's worth noting that Virginia played the easiest schedule in the ACC, as it was the only team to play bottom-feeders North Carolina State, Miami and Wake Forest twice. But if the Cavaliers can hang a conference championship banner in the expansive rafters of John Paul Jones Arena, that won't be remembered."
But if they had beat UVa they would not be at the bottom. This is circular reasoning.
But if they had beat UVa they would not be at the bottom. This is circular reasoning.
Not necessarily but good thinking. I had not considered that. But this would come into play only if the difference in position is less great than the number of games with UVa.
Uva ended splitting with Wake and Miami, which is pathetic. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that their two wins against NC State happened when State's point guard was hurt. UVa did not have to travel to Duke or Georgia Tech, which would have been 2 almost certain losses, nor did they have to play UNC more than once.
But I don't feel any particular need to harp on the point. Weird things happen sometimes and Wake Forest was not the best football team in the ACC and Virginia clearly is not the best basketball team in the ACC.
An unbiased ordering of the ACC from top to bottom accounting for schedule and trending would be 1)UNC 2)Maryland 3)Duke 4)Virginia Tech 5)Boston College 6)Georgia Tech 7)Clemson 8)Virginia 9)FSU 10)NC State 11)Wake Forest 12)Miami.
Uva ended splitting with Wake and Miami, which is pathetic. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that their two wins against NC State happened when State's point guard was hurt. UVa did not have to travel to Duke or Georgia Tech, which would have been 2 almost certain losses, nor did they have to play UNC more than once.
But I don't feel any particular need to harp on the point. Weird things happen sometimes and Wake Forest was not the best football team in the ACC and Virginia clearly is not the best basketball team in the ACC.
An unbiased ordering of the ACC from top to bottom accounting for schedule and trending would be 1)UNC 2)Maryland 3)Duke 4)Virginia Tech 5)Boston College 6)Georgia Tech 7)Clemson 8)Virginia 9)FSU 10)NC State 11)Wake Forest 12)Miami.
What happened to UVA? I mean, Wake Forest isn't as bad as people make them out to be, but they're pretty bad.
Those are the real Cavaliers, the same ones that lost to Miami and who got annihilated in Blacksburg and who lost by 24 to Utah. Pomeroy has a factor called the luck factor and UVa has a pretty high rating of 51.
It may also be correlated with the prediction notion of "pure points." Pure points is something that a lot of people don't like because they say it disregards "heart" but basically it means if a team has to work hard to win a lot of games, this team is not as good as some other team that wins by a more healthy margin.
It may also be correlated with the prediction notion of "pure points." Pure points is something that a lot of people don't like because they say it disregards "heart" but basically it means if a team has to work hard to win a lot of games, this team is not as good as some other team that wins by a more healthy margin.
| william wrote: |
| Those are the real Cavaliers, the same ones that lost to Miami and who got annihilated in Blacksburg and who lost by 24 to Utah. Pomeroy has a factor called the luck factor and UVa has a pretty high rating of 51. |
Yes, they are only defined by their bad games.
By the same measure, the real Tarheels are the ones who gave up 70% shooting to NC State and are 4-4 since the start of February. You can take any team's bad games and make them look worse than they are.
No, Virginia is a team that does need to play well to win games. They didn't play terribly today, but they just couldn't hit shots. Also, Wake played the best defense I've seen them play all year (which isn't really saying much). The Deacons hit a couple of key shots when they had to and Virginia just couldn't knock them down. JR Reynolds had a particularly bad game.
You might be right about the Tar Heels. Remember, a team has to win 6 in a row. That means that inconsistent teams are less likely to go all the way through. But at least Carolina has a margin of error and has some games that they have won by a big margin, unlike UVa.
Today, Virginia was playing at Wake on Senior Day, so you can cut them a little slack there. On the other hand, they did have the chance to make a statement and failed to do so. If they can't do better than 2-2 vs Wake and Miami, realistically, the round of 32 is a reasonable expectation.
Honestly, a huge amount of what happens in the tournament is pure chance, so who knows. Virginia had 3 top five teams in the early 80's (and you won't ever hear me knocking them) and the team that comes closest to making the Finals is the 1984 team that had a losing record in the ACC and missed the Finals by a whisker. But still, that 1984 team was far better than this squad, so please explain how we equate 6-9(Cavs lost in first round in 1984 ACC tournament) with 11-5? What have they done to our basketball conference?
I boycotted the National Semi-finals games in 1984 to protest Bobby Knight's failure to appear for trial in Puerto Rico, so I didn't see Virginia almost beat Houston but I can hear the announcers in my mind saying, "Billy, this might be Terry Holland's best coaching job ever," when a lot of it was just luck, just like it was bad luck in 1981 when Al Wood could not miss.
Larry Brown told Dean Smith that after he won it in 1988 with Kansas, which I think was an 8 seed, that in every game except for the Final game against Oklahoma, the higher seed that would have faced Kansas lost, making the path to the Final Four much easier.
Today, Virginia was playing at Wake on Senior Day, so you can cut them a little slack there. On the other hand, they did have the chance to make a statement and failed to do so. If they can't do better than 2-2 vs Wake and Miami, realistically, the round of 32 is a reasonable expectation.
Honestly, a huge amount of what happens in the tournament is pure chance, so who knows. Virginia had 3 top five teams in the early 80's (and you won't ever hear me knocking them) and the team that comes closest to making the Finals is the 1984 team that had a losing record in the ACC and missed the Finals by a whisker. But still, that 1984 team was far better than this squad, so please explain how we equate 6-9(Cavs lost in first round in 1984 ACC tournament) with 11-5? What have they done to our basketball conference?
I boycotted the National Semi-finals games in 1984 to protest Bobby Knight's failure to appear for trial in Puerto Rico, so I didn't see Virginia almost beat Houston but I can hear the announcers in my mind saying, "Billy, this might be Terry Holland's best coaching job ever," when a lot of it was just luck, just like it was bad luck in 1981 when Al Wood could not miss.
Larry Brown told Dean Smith that after he won it in 1988 with Kansas, which I think was an 8 seed, that in every game except for the Final game against Oklahoma, the higher seed that would have faced Kansas lost, making the path to the Final Four much easier.
William,
Here's the part you're coveniently forgetting, but it doesn't surprise me as you're trying to "win" an argument that only you are making: 8-0. Only undefeated ACC team in league play at home this year. Read that and burn it into your skull.
We got Duke's best shot at the JPJ. Went down double digits. Still on that game. Go ahead, respond to the post on how that was unfair scheduling. Held off a game FSU squad that should've won that game and they NEEDED it to for their tourney resume. No dice. Now tell me how great that power forward they have is. Or he's a bum because he couldn't will his team to a victory over a poor Virginia squad. We had no business beating a surging Ga Tech team either at JPJ. They should've won that game easy, and I'm a UVa fan and I'm telling you that. BUT....somehow we won.
You don't win 11 conference games in the ACC due to luck and adventageous scheduling. Keep in mind, we didn't get Duke at home last year. But I imagine when Carolina wins 11, they're the bee's knees.
If you want to ding me about NC State's point guard, then give our guys credit for not getting a return match against UNC or BC later in the year when they dropped off a bit? You won't do that, will you, because that hurts your weak argument. On top of that, care to comment on why Virginia plays at BC, loses by 5 and THEN their coach decides to kick off their best shot-blocker who ate our lunch?
I don't worry about that stuff. I'm a Virginia fan and a realist. I'll take 11 wins and be happy with it. Everyone else in the ACC can talk to the league office about our schedule being weak as long as we get our shot at BC and UNC at our place.
Here's the part you're coveniently forgetting, but it doesn't surprise me as you're trying to "win" an argument that only you are making: 8-0. Only undefeated ACC team in league play at home this year. Read that and burn it into your skull.
We got Duke's best shot at the JPJ. Went down double digits. Still on that game. Go ahead, respond to the post on how that was unfair scheduling. Held off a game FSU squad that should've won that game and they NEEDED it to for their tourney resume. No dice. Now tell me how great that power forward they have is. Or he's a bum because he couldn't will his team to a victory over a poor Virginia squad. We had no business beating a surging Ga Tech team either at JPJ. They should've won that game easy, and I'm a UVa fan and I'm telling you that. BUT....somehow we won.
You don't win 11 conference games in the ACC due to luck and adventageous scheduling. Keep in mind, we didn't get Duke at home last year. But I imagine when Carolina wins 11, they're the bee's knees.
If you want to ding me about NC State's point guard, then give our guys credit for not getting a return match against UNC or BC later in the year when they dropped off a bit? You won't do that, will you, because that hurts your weak argument. On top of that, care to comment on why Virginia plays at BC, loses by 5 and THEN their coach decides to kick off their best shot-blocker who ate our lunch?
I don't worry about that stuff. I'm a Virginia fan and a realist. I'll take 11 wins and be happy with it. Everyone else in the ACC can talk to the league office about our schedule being weak as long as we get our shot at BC and UNC at our place.
I think the unbalanced schedule stuff is overblown, but UVa did catch a bit of a break in playing Maryland twice before the Terps caught fire.
Still, Virginia and Virginia Tech both exceeded expectations this year by playing really well in close games. That's what experienced and talented guards will do for you.
Still, Virginia and Virginia Tech both exceeded expectations this year by playing really well in close games. That's what experienced and talented guards will do for you.
Ramar,
Amazing. Duke goes 8-8 in the ACC and goes 4-4 at home, but UVa's schedule is somehow not valid because they didn't play Duke at home. Keep in mind that Duke's home record should have been 3-5 because that Clemson game should've been a loss. No one wants to talk about "catching a break" for the Dukies.
Nobody ever mentions that Duke catches breaks it doesn't deserve, but a bottom-rung Virginia program has a 7-9 and 11-5 record over the last two years and the scheduling is screwy.
You should hear other UVa fans upset that they didn't go 13-3. You can't please everyone. But you'll take a bye in the conference tourney, make the best of it and hope for a bid on Selection Sunday, I guess.
Amazing. Duke goes 8-8 in the ACC and goes 4-4 at home, but UVa's schedule is somehow not valid because they didn't play Duke at home. Keep in mind that Duke's home record should have been 3-5 because that Clemson game should've been a loss. No one wants to talk about "catching a break" for the Dukies.
Nobody ever mentions that Duke catches breaks it doesn't deserve, but a bottom-rung Virginia program has a 7-9 and 11-5 record over the last two years and the scheduling is screwy.
You should hear other UVa fans upset that they didn't go 13-3. You can't please everyone. But you'll take a bye in the conference tourney, make the best of it and hope for a bid on Selection Sunday, I guess.
Oh Virginia's in. That's a done deal. Their RPI may not be outstanding and I've said many times that conference record doesn't matter, but this is a special case. 9-7 versus 7-9 doesn't matter, but 11-5 is not something you normally see in a bubble team. There's no way in hell they deny an at-large bid to the ACC regular season champion. Heads would roll.
As for that Duke-Clemson game, let's not get carried away. At no point near the end did Clemson have the lead in that game. Best case for them, it goes to overtime and we've seen how Clemson handles close games this year.
As for that Duke-Clemson game, let's not get carried away. At no point near the end did Clemson have the lead in that game. Best case for them, it goes to overtime and we've seen how Clemson handles close games this year.
True, Dave, but you can say the same about the UVa-Duke game, although UVa was playing at home. On the other hand, Clemson seemed to have all the momentum.
Amazing. Duke goes 8-8 in the ACC and goes 4-4 at home, but UVa's schedule is somehow not valid because they didn't play Duke at home.
That's hardly what I said. I said that Virginia caught a break by playing Maryland twice early in the conference season, when the Terps were scuffling, instead of late in the year, when they were playing as well as anyone in the country. And they did.
Keep in mind that Duke's home record should have been 3-5 because that Clemson game should've been a loss. No one wants to talk about "catching a break" for the Dukies.
Oh, I think it gets mentioned from time to time.
Nobody ever mentions that Duke catches breaks it doesn't deserve, but a bottom-rung Virginia program has a 7-9 and 11-5 record over the last two years and the scheduling is screwy.
The scheduling *is* screwy. I don't there's any denying that.
That's hardly what I said. I said that Virginia caught a break by playing Maryland twice early in the conference season, when the Terps were scuffling, instead of late in the year, when they were playing as well as anyone in the country. And they did.
Keep in mind that Duke's home record should have been 3-5 because that Clemson game should've been a loss. No one wants to talk about "catching a break" for the Dukies.
Oh, I think it gets mentioned from time to time.
Nobody ever mentions that Duke catches breaks it doesn't deserve, but a bottom-rung Virginia program has a 7-9 and 11-5 record over the last two years and the scheduling is screwy.
The scheduling *is* screwy. I don't there's any denying that.
| william wrote: |
|
But I don't feel any particular need to harp on the point. Weird things happen sometimes and Wake Forest was not the best football team in the ACC and Virginia clearly is not the best basketball team in the ACC. |
Just wondering, but who did you think was the best football team in the ACC over the course of the season?
| dpc1994 wrote: |
|
Keep in mind that Duke's home record should have been 3-5 because that Clemson game should've been a loss. |
I hate to beat a dead horse, but the Clemson game was TIED BEFORE DUKE SCORED THE WINNING BASKET. If the refs got the call right, then the game goes into overtime, where the outcome of the game was still undecided.
SuperJew and Ramar,
You know what, guys? Why doesn't everyone just get in line at the ACC league office and try to get them to invalidate the schedule and have UVa forfeit all those wins? You'll get the same treatment that Craig Littlepage got when he tried to protest that Duke game a few years back with the clock error. :-) Good luck with that.
And just like Coach K and Gary Williams played that card to build their programs, Dave Leitao will have to do the same thing. No one respects the 11-5 and harps on Duke's 8-8 and excuses away Maryland's underachieving first half only to mention the upswing in the second half? No problem.
As for the Clemson game, at that point of the year (since you advocate giving Maryland a mulligan since UVa beat them twice and they were somehow in need of a "do over,") would you have bet on Duke to win that Clemson game in OT? I don't think so. Duke was about as good as their 8-8 record.
With two national HS POYs on its roster, surely Duke should be better than UVa's roster with no Burger Boys on it, right? Hall of Fame coach, multiple McD AA's, the Duke mystique? That and a sneer should be enough to win at the JPJ.
A lot of things went right this year for us: we had a guard on a surgically repaired hip (Singletary) to worry about at the on-set. No inside presence. Very little athleticism. In fact, look at Clemson, Duke Maryland, FSU, Ga Tech and Va Tech's frontlines and compare them to UVa's. No comparison. How DID Virginia get 7 wins out of those teams? Coaching and grit. Other than Singletary and Reynolds, UVa's roster is pretty much poo-poo.
Maybe the question isn't "why did Virginia get a favorable schedule?" The question should be "why didn't Virginia lose more to the bottom and middle of the league?" Virginia, essentially, had the same team last year and won 7 games. Split with Carolina last year, winning at our place and losing by 40 at theirs. This year? Lost by less than 12 and managed not to break Hansbrough's nose. ;-)
This year at BC? Lost by 5. The next game? Their inside force was kicked off the team. Would've been nice to play them without him. No whining from us.
Just win what you can, guys, while the gettin' is good. To be honest, I looked at the talent on our roster this year and our penchant for losing close games last year and figured us for a 9-7 season. And that was with a lot of things going well. Nobody figured us to go 10-3 the last 13 on the ACC schedule. Neither did I. It was just one of those things. At some point, the clemson, NC State, FSU's and Ga Tech's of the world should've beaten us in the regular season, but that didn't happen. It's more a function of why the ACC wasn't as competitive in the middle as it normally is than a question of Virginia having a weak schedule and running roughsod through it with stud players and acting as if it accomplished something.
If any of you saw the games in Puerto Rico, you'd understand what I'm talking about it. Virginia shouldn't apologize for the schedule. The 11 teams we beat should maybe look in the mirror, though. ;-)
You know what, guys? Why doesn't everyone just get in line at the ACC league office and try to get them to invalidate the schedule and have UVa forfeit all those wins? You'll get the same treatment that Craig Littlepage got when he tried to protest that Duke game a few years back with the clock error. :-) Good luck with that.
And just like Coach K and Gary Williams played that card to build their programs, Dave Leitao will have to do the same thing. No one respects the 11-5 and harps on Duke's 8-8 and excuses away Maryland's underachieving first half only to mention the upswing in the second half? No problem.
As for the Clemson game, at that point of the year (since you advocate giving Maryland a mulligan since UVa beat them twice and they were somehow in need of a "do over,") would you have bet on Duke to win that Clemson game in OT? I don't think so. Duke was about as good as their 8-8 record.
With two national HS POYs on its roster, surely Duke should be better than UVa's roster with no Burger Boys on it, right? Hall of Fame coach, multiple McD AA's, the Duke mystique? That and a sneer should be enough to win at the JPJ.
A lot of things went right this year for us: we had a guard on a surgically repaired hip (Singletary) to worry about at the on-set. No inside presence. Very little athleticism. In fact, look at Clemson, Duke Maryland, FSU, Ga Tech and Va Tech's frontlines and compare them to UVa's. No comparison. How DID Virginia get 7 wins out of those teams? Coaching and grit. Other than Singletary and Reynolds, UVa's roster is pretty much poo-poo.
Maybe the question isn't "why did Virginia get a favorable schedule?" The question should be "why didn't Virginia lose more to the bottom and middle of the league?" Virginia, essentially, had the same team last year and won 7 games. Split with Carolina last year, winning at our place and losing by 40 at theirs. This year? Lost by less than 12 and managed not to break Hansbrough's nose. ;-)
This year at BC? Lost by 5. The next game? Their inside force was kicked off the team. Would've been nice to play them without him. No whining from us.
Just win what you can, guys, while the gettin' is good. To be honest, I looked at the talent on our roster this year and our penchant for losing close games last year and figured us for a 9-7 season. And that was with a lot of things going well. Nobody figured us to go 10-3 the last 13 on the ACC schedule. Neither did I. It was just one of those things. At some point, the clemson, NC State, FSU's and Ga Tech's of the world should've beaten us in the regular season, but that didn't happen. It's more a function of why the ACC wasn't as competitive in the middle as it normally is than a question of Virginia having a weak schedule and running roughsod through it with stud players and acting as if it accomplished something.
If any of you saw the games in Puerto Rico, you'd understand what I'm talking about it. Virginia shouldn't apologize for the schedule. The 11 teams we beat should maybe look in the mirror, though. ;-)
| william wrote: |
| Virginia Tech was the best team over the course of the season. |
'Cept when playing NC State. But then each team seemed to have their own kryptonite this year. As well as some very unappealing road records.
UVa and GT both had road woes ... UVa managed to beat Maryland on the road but other than that ? Clemson by 1, NC State 'mitout', and Puerto Rico Mayaguez by 7. Hardly inspiring.
Tech was even worse, FSU was their only win away from home.
FSU beat Dook, Miami in OT, and a couple cupcakes (Stetson, Ga St) away.
Clemson's best road win was their last game vs VT, other than that relatively little - Minnesota, ODU, South Carolina, FSU, and State without.
BC ? UMass, State, Wake, Miami, FSU. thumbs down.
Dook had good road wins vs BC and Clemson, and blah road wins over St. John's and NC State without Atsur. That was it for dook on the road.
VT - won at dook, at GTech, and at UNC, among others. Solid, in conference at least.
MD was decent, winning at Illinois, Dook, and Clemson, as well as at State, Wake, and St Johns.
UNC - at dook, at Clemson, at BC, at Arizona, and over Tennessee in NY (true neutral court, unlike Charlotte over Winthrop).
Not listing every Wake and Miami away win for these teams, those were pretty common.
Kind of an obvious dividing line between teams that could beat good teams on the road, and those that couldn't often. UNC, Maryland, and VT. Dook falling in the middle, with UVa. Then BC, Clemson, GT, FSU in a scrum with few or no good road wins.
Good analysis, but in William's defense, he was talking about football there. Someone had asked who the best ACC football team was last year if it wasn't Wake Forest.
Posted by Dave at March 2, 2007 02:19 PM
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