Dave Sez

Dahntay Jones? I would have thought he would be long forgotten at this point. Where's Bobby Hurley? How can you have a list like this without including a player who had a permanent pout on his face?

Although Danny Meagher deserves to be higher on this list (much, much higher), nobody remembers him. Well, except for Tom Sheehey.

^^ "Where's Bobby Hurley?" Uh, at Number One?

Cant argue with either list. Lots of people actually tried to hate Shane Battier, but damn, he's a nice guy. And works his ass off, too.

They're trying to stir up some enthusiasm for hating on Jon Scheyer but so far he's disappointed the would-be haters. No show-boating, no glaring at officials, just shoots the ball and runs back on "D". What a letdown. Maybe he'll be better next year.

Gerald Henderson making the list is a short-lived joke. He's a really nice kid and before the Carolina game, 90% of basketball viewers probably didn't know he existed.

Pssst, Dave: Melch's first name is Lee.

"Melch's first name is Lee."

or Gary (but probably meant Lee).

Jerry wrote:

Pssst, Dave: Melch's first name is Lee.

Damn, what did I type? Steve? Where the hell did I get that? Go, go magic post editor! Poof, it's fixed!


Re: Meagher - yeah I really, really hated that dude. Mostly because he spit on Tom Sheehey, but also because he was just a big thug. For that matter, I didn't like Jay Bilas much either, but he's made up for it by being a very good analyst. What's funny is I loved the rest of that team, especially Johnnie Dawkins.

Re: Battier - my wife actually hated Battier more because he was so damn likable. That pissed her off. Here was a guy who was a great player, but also very intelligent, humble and funny. That was more than she could stomach from a Dukie.

My Top Five Most Hated Duke Players:
1- Battier, 2- J.J., 3- Wojo, 4- Duhon, 5- Trajan Langdon/Dahntay Jones (tie)

(I don't understand hating Haywood, Reid, or Jordan, Dave. I thought that McCants was going to be top 5 for sure. Care to elaborate?)

If this were to include players in the state of North Carolina, Chris Paul and Julius Hodge would be near the top of players that I loathe.

SuperJew wrote:

My Top Five Most Hated Duke Players: 1- Battier, 2- J.J., 3- Wojo, 4- Duhon, 5- Trajan Langdon/Dahntay Jones (tie) (I don't understand hating Haywood, Reid, or Jordan, Dave. I thought that McCants was going to be top 5 for sure. Care to elaborate?) If this were to include players in the state of North Carolina, Chris Paul and Julius Hodge would be near the top of players that I loathe.

Haywood was such a waste of talent, but yet had an attitude. That was reallllllly annoying.

JR Reid was a bit of a punk and just used his ass to knock people around. Oh, and he picked UNC over UVA.

Jordan I hated just because he was so damn good and tormented Virginia's best teams.

Right on the money with Haywood.

Rasheed is #1 on my UNC list. I still can't stand him. Melchioni is #1 on my Duke list. Dirty player with a great jumper.

5- Trajan Langdon

Huh. This I don't get.

My most hated tarheels in my era (from 96-97 to present):

1. Makhtar Ndiaye (Ndiaye is a Nderk)
2. Easy Ed Cota
3. Joey Forte
4. Vince Carter
5. Rashad McCants
6. Ademola Okulaja
7. Julius Peppers
8. Ronald Curry
9. Serge Zwikker
10. Kris Lang

How could you not love Serge?!!

I was so busy fearing Peppers that it was hard to hate him. Ditto Jamison. Ndiaye would have to be at the top of my personal list; Curry is right up there, if for no other reason than faking an injury to let someone else hit free throws during my last Carolina game in Cameron. Forte the same- way more attitude than game. (Which is part of why the Battier block of him from behind, and the loss to Penn State, was sooooo great.)

I'd love to see Free Darko ruminate on why it is the *white* Duke player who gets hated on so much, and not the Brands, Williams, etc. Williams had a competitive streak a mile wide and would jam it in your face. And he killed Maryland in the gone in 57 seconds game. And yet MD fans don't seem to hate him like they do, say, JJ.

And I'm not sure how anyone could bring themselves to hate Greg Newton... not really worth the effort. Ditto Serge and Klang. It is like hating someone's 12 year old brother- they might be detestable, but they should be beneath your notice.

Don't get Trajan or Josh, either- Josh just seems mostly harmless out there, and Trajan was a fundamentally nice guy who wouldn't taunt a fly.

Langdon only makes people's lists because of the immense hype Vitale put on him (Alaskan Assassin, etc) which caused him to get accolades undeserved by his play. Shammond Williams had a better year and better stats yet got passed over by Trajan "what can I do with the ball in 4 seconds in the final game" Langdon.

Dahntay Jones will always be remembered for cheap shots and punk demonstrations after plays. Wojo for (and you can still find this on youtube) using soccer style trip moves, like sticking his leg between the ball handlers legs, and also for kissing up to Vitale in ways unmatched by anyone ever since (took his daughter to the prom, 'starred' on his execrable short lived espn 'series').

Battier was a nice guy, and a good player, though he did flop a lot. Not as much as JJ, or at least Battier never really 'air-flopped' when not getting touched AT ALL. Scheyer is easy to pick on because of the Scheyerface, but seems to like the 'kick his leg out on the three to get a foul/pull defender down on him' move too. I suspect Taylor King will be adept at this too.

McRoberts, another hype product, this time with more pouty face and cussing after plays. He really does seem to be on the edge of a nervous breakdown sometimes, like when crying into his towel with 8 mins left and the game still very much in doubt.

As for the Carolina players, I can see reasons for hate for many of em; heck, Carolina fans would love to disown Makhtar if we could. Wallace was Dahntay Jones with less cheap shots and more demonstrations. Forte was me-first and ended up a severe waste of talent. Dunno how you can hate Peppers or Lebo though. Both of them played hard and were likable, personable players. Same with Ademola, I don't know what he ever did to get under anyone's skin, unless you're a UVA fan and he beat you with a last second shot.

Ademola (at least for Duke fans) was less irritating in games and more for his post game comments; his 'they didn't win, we beat ourselves' was famously irritating. Like I said, I feared more than disliked Peppers, but he was occasionally really, really demonstrative in games. I can understand thinking he was a jerk.

As far as any claim that 'you can find it on youtube'- I can assemble film clips that make just about anyone look like a dirty player, if I care to. It isn't hard for anyone whose team is on TV enough for there to be a fair amount of footage.

Sorry, was getting error msgs from your site, didn't appear posts had gone through, please clean up when ya see this Dave.

As for Kris Lang, it was his goofy mug and that damn mouthpiece, which he was constantly taking in and out. And yes, AO makes the list for the "we beat ourselves" comments. Zwikker was just big and huge and lumbering and should have owned the paint - but he only averaged 11 and 8 his senior year - and he was a 5th year senior. Peppers was fearsome, yes, but it's because he played basketball like a Pro Bowl defensive end, not a basketball player. Jamison was feared too, but for the right reasons.

Peppers was fearsome, yes, but it's because he played basketball like a Pro Bowl defensive end, not a basketball player.

Dunno. I mean, he was incredibly physical, but I don't remember him striking me as dirty- just bigger, badder, stronger, and more athletic than anyone I can remember seeing in the PF position. I know I've mentioned McRoberts as an athletic freak here today, but he pales in comparison to Peppers.

Ted in Durham wrote:

Sorry, was getting error msgs from your site, didn't appear posts had gone through, please clean up when ya see this Dave.

No problem. I cleaned it up. The server does get a bit confused at times.

Hey, why don't you (and tieguy) register? We've suddenly (well, actually it's been building for a long time now) got a nice little community here.

http://www.davesez.com/mb/profile.php?mode=register

tieguy wrote:

Peppers was fearsome, yes, but it's because he played basketball like a Pro Bowl defensive end, not a basketball player. Dunno. I mean, he was incredibly physical, but I don't remember him striking me as dirty- just bigger, badder, stronger, and more athletic than anyone I can remember seeing in the PF position. I know I've mentioned McRoberts as an athletic freak here today, but he pales in comparison to Peppers.

It's scary to think of how good Peppers could have become. I guess that football thing has worked out OK though.

I do remember one play where he decked Roger Mason Jr and then stood over him for several extra seconds so that Mason couldn't get up. I mean, what was he going to do about it? Generally though, I loved watching Peppers. You just don't see many bodies like that on the hardwood.

I registered. I've posted a couple comments here and there over the past year, and just never got around to signing up for the Shack. It is a nice community starting, and thanks for the good articles (obligatory kiss-up here ).

Ted in Durham wrote:

I registered. I've posted a couple comments here and there over the past year, and just never got around to signing up for the Shack. It is a nice community starting, and thanks for the good articles (obligatory kiss-up here ).

That was quick! Cool. We're building a nice little group of knowledgable ACC fans. Overnight success after three years!

I thought I had registered in October, but discovered in my inbox that I'd registered but never completed the registration. Oops. Well, registered now.

tieguy wrote:

I thought I had registered in October, but discovered in my inbox that I'd registered but never completed the registration. Oops. Well, registered now.

Good deal!

What don't we like? How about whiney hypocrisy:

Somebody sent me a play by play of the Duke-Wake game this year that
Duke won by 22 and they had the starters in and were shooting 3
pointers--Duke took a time-out with less than 2 minutes in the game, up
by 20, left all its starters in and then had a McRoberts dunk and a
Paulus 3-pointer in the last seconds:

3:28 35-53 Josh McRoberts made Free Throw.
3:16 Ishmael Smith missed Two Point Layup. 35-53
3:16 35-53 Josh McRoberts Defensive Rebound.
2:59 35-55 Josh McRoberts made Two Point Dunk Shot.
2:53 Wake Forest Full Timeout. 35-55
2:44 Ishmael Smith made Two Point Layup. 37-55
2:10 37-57 David McClure made Two Point Jumper.
1:55 37-57 Foul on David McClure
1:55 37-57 Duke Full Timeout.
1:55 Ishmael Smith made Free Throw. 38-57
1:55 Ishmael Smith missed Free Throw. 38-57
1:55 38-57 Duke Defensive Rebound.
1:24 L.D. Williams missed Three Point Jumper. 38-57
1:24 38-57 Gerald Henderson Defensive Rebound.
0:49 38-59 Josh McRoberts made Two Point Dunk Shot.
0:34 Ishmael Smith missed Three Point Jumper. 38-59
0:34 38-59 Josh McRoberts Defensive Rebound.
0:08 38-62 Greg Paulus made Three Point Jumper.
0:05 Ishmael Smith missed Two Point Layup. 38-62
0:05 Ishmael Smith Offensive Rebound. 38-62
0:04 Ishmael Smith made Two Point Layup. 40-62

I am going to list my five favorite Duke players since I have been watching them.

1. Mike Gminski--Class Act
2. Jay Bilas--Class Act
3. Grant Hill--Class Act
4. Clay Buckley--Classy kid with relatives at both schools; one of the only players ever to go to the Final Four all four of his years in college.
5. Cherokee Parks--He was a nice looking kid and Coach K hated him, so he must have had something going for him.

I agree with most of your Carolina picks, but I thought it had to be mannerisms, not just beating the other team, so I don't follow the Jordan pick. I don't get the Calabria and Lebo ones either but other seven are pretty much on.

Since we tend not to dislike the players on our alma maters, I am going to pick the 10 Tar Heels who I found either annoying in some way or thought that the coaches played too much.

1. Bruce Buckley. He was nice guy and a smart guy, but seemed really ackward and missed a key shot against Marquette in the 2nd half.
2. Matt Doherty. He just didn't fit in on those teams in terms of coolness, plus he missed a key free throw against Georgetown.
3. J.R. Reid. He and his hair were a phenomenon during his freshman year and it was all downhill after that. Major disappointment. The only good thing is that Dean recruited him instead of Ferry, so I can live with that.
4. Maktar Ndiaye. The only transfer Carolina had ever had was McAdoo. O.K., let's change the tradition all at once and get a guy who has already been at 2 schools. This guy was a thug and not that good. I never knew what he had on Dean and Guthridge.
5 and 6: Kris Lang and whatever Capel we had. These two guys not only underperformed, they couldn't get along.
7. Joe Forte. See immediately above. Joe thought that he was another Kenny Smith, left early and went on to a stellar NBA career.
8. Henrik Rodl. He made me nervous whenever he had the ball and he looked foreign.
9. Pat Sullivan. He wasn't a bad guy. He took a redshirt after his Junior year when Carolina had too many guys when 'Sheed and "House were in the house, but he never lived up to his high school hype. He also missed a very important free throw against Michigan.
10. Brian Reese. Same class as Sullivan, Rozier, Montross, and Phelps, which turned out to be the most over-hyped recruiting class in history, but Dave, when Dean had his hyped recruiting class go bust he still won the National title in 1993. Reese was supposed to be another Walter Davis; he wasn't even a Reyshawn Terry.

Asked about Tim Duncan after the game, Greg Newton was perhaps a little too honest. Newton told The Washington Post that Duncan was ``passive'' and ``soft'' and said the Wake center can turn his game off and on at will. If Duncan played hard all the time, he could be an ``unbelievable player,'' Newton said.

When asked about Greg Newton's statements, Tim Duncan responded, "Oh, really? Well, he's the greatest player that I have ever seen."

Maybe the greatest sports comeback of all time and he didn't cuss or complain about getting disrespected or try to get Newton back by sending a message in the paint.

william wrote:

Asked about Tim Duncan after the game, Greg Newton was perhaps a little too honest. Newton told The Washington Post that Duncan was ``passive'' and ``soft'' and said the Wake center can turn his game off and on at will. If Duncan played hard all the time, he could be an ``unbelievable player,'' Newton said. When asked about Greg Newton's statements, Tim Duncan responded, "Oh, really? Well, he's the greatest player that I have ever seen." Maybe the greatest sports comeback of all time and he didn't cuss or complain about getting disrespected or try to get Newton back by sending a message in the paint.

I've got that quote in my list that shows on the front page. You missed that Newton also called Duncan "babyish." Mind you this, was just after a game where Duncan had something like 24 and 12 and hit the game winning shot in Cameron.

BTW, I hated Jordan out of pure jealousy. He was so damn good (folks like to pretend that he wasn't now for some reason) his sophomore and junior years. I think my hatred began when he stripped Othell Wilson at midcourt with four fouls to help complete a huge comeback in Carmichael.

Calabria was hated mostly because Vitale never shut up about him.

Lebo was just one of those guys who always hit big shots and that drove me nuts, as I hated Carolina in those days. He was Hurley without the hype.

And here are my ten favorite Dukies:

1. Johnnie Dawkins
2. Grant Hill
3. Shane Battier
4. Carlos Boozer
5. Danny Ferry
6. Tommy Amaker
7. Christian Laettner (yeah, he made both lists!)
8. Robert Brickey
9. Thomas Hill
10. Taymon Dumbfoulski (he just cracked me up)

Ten favorite Tar Heels:

1. James Worthy
2. Kenny Smith
3. Brad Daugherty
4. Raymond Felton
5. Sean May
6. Tyler Hansbrough
7. Michael Jordan (like Laettner, I had a love/hate thing)
8. Serge Zwikker
9. Jerry Stackhouse
10. Antawn Jamison
11. Vince Carter (couldn't leave him out)

Dean Smith dealt with the issue of "holding Jordan back" in his book very effectively, I think. He noted what a great defensive player Jordan was--just ask jeff jones or whoever that was in the 64-63 game--and Jordan shot 56% from the floor and that includes one year where they had the short three pointer in the ACC.


He also got in a little dig at Krzyzewski by noting that Jordan had a higher overall scoring average than Grant Hill, and that both players had done reasonably well in the NBA.

The joke is that Smith was the only person able to hold Jordan under 20 points.

My joke is that Michael Jordan only played 3 years at Carolina. Just think how good he might have been if had gotten the benefit of four years of Smith's coaching.

Your quotes that pop up are one of the best things here. Another guy that I remember hating is Tom Sheehy, but I can't really remember why. He had that bizarre hermaphroditic name and he must have done something I didn't like against Carolina. Anybody remember?

william wrote:

The joke is that Smith was the only person able to hold Jordan under 20 points.

Yes, that's an oft-repeated joke that ignores the fact that Michael did average 20 ppg his sophomore year.

http://www.sportsstats.com/bball/individual.stats/player_stats/player1017.txt

It's late and I am off to bed, but I have been trying to find entertaining tidbits from ACC history.

Does anybody remember Phil Henderson transferring to Illinois and then getting rejected academically and then begging K to take him back? K stripped him of his captaincy, I believe.

I will give K credit on one matter. Henderson took ten years to graduate and Krzyzewski refused to put up the Final Four banner from his senior season, I believe, until Henderson finally graduated. Carolina should have done that with Rasheed.

william wrote:

Your quotes that pop up are one of the best things here. Another guy that I remember hating is Tom Sheehy, but I can't really remember why. He had that bizarre hermaphroditic name and he must have done something I didn't like against Carolina. Anybody remember?

I don't remember, but he was one of those guys that everybody hated. He played a physical game and was just good enough to get on everyone's nerves.

What people probably don't remember is that he was very heavily recruited - one of the top high school players in the country. He put up 22 points in the McDonald's AA game. If I remember right (and I may not), he was choosing between UVA and UNC. Funny how when Virginia wins those fights the players turn out to be duds (see Dersch, Willie).

william wrote:

It's late and I am off to bed, but I have been trying to find entertaining tidbits from ACC history. Does anybody remember Phil Henderson transferring to Illinois and then getting rejected academically and then begging K to take him back? K stripped him of his captaincy, I believe. I will give K credit on one matter. Henderson took ten years to graduate and Krzyzewski refused to put up the Final Four banner from his senior season, I believe, until Henderson finally graduated. Carolina should have done that with Rasheed.

I'm up waaaay too late as well.

Yes, I always liked that K did that with Henderson and the banner. I vaguely remember the transfer stuff. I remember something weird about the way his career ended. He always reminded me so much of Dawkins, because they were built the same, all joints and angles.

These days, you'd have a hard time hanging any banners if you did that. So many of the great players leave early.

Ted in Durham wrote:

Langdon only makes people's lists because of the immense hype Vitale put on him (Alaskan Assassin, etc) which caused him to get accolades undeserved by his play. Shammond Williams had a better year and better stats yet got passed over by Trajan "what can I do with the ball in 4 seconds in the final game" Langdon.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Although, (if I recall correctly) Shammond did have horrible Final Fours that was a decent reason why UNC never won with Antwan/Vince.

(BTW, the possible 1995-1996 UNC team could have been a legit NBA squad. Wallace, Stackhouse, Jamison, Carter, Cota with a huge, deep bench. That could have been an undefeated team, although you are counting a lot from 'unproven' freshman. )

Quote:

Battier was a nice guy, and a good player, though he did flop a lot. Not as much as JJ, or at least Battier never really 'air-flopped' when not getting touched AT ALL.

Shenanagans. Nobody drove in the lane against Duke during the Battier years because he always drew those !@#$%*^ charges. I'm certain that's why they put up that little charge arc in the lane during NBA games. That, coupled with the "Who's your daddy? Battier!" chant at every Duke game was enough to drive any sane man over the edge. Off the court, though, completely different story.

I think my favorite UNC player would have to be Ed Cota. I wasn't around for Phil Ford, but I imagine Easy Ed to be a poor man's Phil Ford. He was so good with the assists, but was the first player to score 1,000 points and have 1,000 assists/500 rebounds in the history of the NCAA. (It doesn't hurt that he's currently playing for my favorite foreign basketball team, Hapoel Jerusalem.)

Cota-Carter: Best alley-oop combination ever.

Hey I'm trying to be even handed. I did hate on Battier for all of that too ) . His own personal unicorn ... can't decide if that trumps JJs 'poetry' or not... JJ's poetry might win because of the very funny parodys done over the years.

In other news involving Duke, Kobe Bryant has joined Billy Packer in condemning the decision by the ACC to suspend Gerald Henderson, stating that "sometimes a person's hands go where you don't mean for them to go. I don't see how they can suspend the kid unless they can prove it. The ACC is too soft. That kind of penalty would never be given in the NBA."

SuperJew wrote:

I think my favorite UNC player would have to be Ed Cota. I wasn't around for Phil Ford, but I imagine Easy Ed to be a poor man's Phil Ford. He was so good with the assists, but was the first player to score 1,000 points and have 1,000 assists/500 rebounds in the history of the NCAA. (It doesn't hurt that he's currently playing for my favorite foreign basketball team, Hapoel Jerusalem.)

Ahh, Easy Ed. Never fouled out and never once took a charge. Wasn't he like 25 when he left UNC?

Hey, his parents died in a car wreck. Show some respect.

Kenny Smith seemed destined for Virginia and they were sorely disappointed not to get him. Terry Holland said "I don't really think they realize just what they are getting."

Smith was terrific at Carolina but he was always overshadowed, first by Jordan and Perkins and then by Daugherty and JR Reid. I am not exactly sure why because Phil Ford held his own on a team with Kupchak and Walter Davis. I guess Kenny Smith just had a laidback style.

Dave wrote:

SuperJew wrote: I think my favorite UNC player would have to be Ed Cota. I wasn't around for Phil Ford, but I imagine Easy Ed to be a poor man's Phil Ford. He was so good with the assists, but was the first player to score 1,000 points and have 1,000 assists/500 rebounds in the history of the NCAA. (It doesn't hurt that he's currently playing for my favorite foreign basketball team, Hapoel Jerusalem.) Ahh, Easy Ed. Never fouled out and never once took a charge. Wasn't he like 25 when he left UNC?

So, I take it that you have a lesser opinion of Ed than I do, Dave. Easy Ed (along with Jameer Nelson) is the reason why I overrate teams with senior point guards in the NCAA tournament. UNC had no business being in that Final Four in his senior year.

(In fact, I remember a SI preview of the NCAA Tournament that year which said that the UNC-Missouri first round game should have been in the NIT. I wished all sorts of pain and displeasure against whoever came up with that quote.)

Also, (via Wikipedia) Ed was born on May 19th, 1976 and graduated in 2000. So, when the season ended, he would have been an old 24.

UNC in 2000 had the lowest RPI in the Final Four in years and years. Unfortunately for UNC, the overachievement by this squad masked the recruiting deficiencies that would become apparent in 2002.

Yeah, the list of recruits who spurned Guthridge is pretty long:

Omar Cook
Eddie Griffin
Mike Dunleavy Jr.
Shavlik Randolph
James White
David Lee
Brian Boddicker

To be fair, it wasn't Gut's fault that a couple of guys (see Parker, Jason) didn't work out. It was, however, the decision to wait for Omar Cook instead of trying for Jason Williams (and to follow that up with passing on the likes of Andre Barrett for Adam Boone and Jonathan Holmes) that caused the 8-20 debacle.

Yep, that Cook/Boone recruitment really screwed Carolina for a few years.

I never liked Bob Verga or Art Heyman... Ooops, I'm dating myself--back to the days of THE ACC Game of the Week.

Dante Calabria probably makes everyone's "Most Hated Heel" list because we're jealous. He was probably scoring more off the court than on--he was, and probably still is, very attractive man.

Say, that would be a good list--most attractive. We could post using different names, not that there's anything wrong with that...

The ugly list has been done before a few times elsewgere. A 'pretty boy' list ? I think that's best left for boards with some female participation. Plus, I don't think I'm any kind of judge on how good looking non-white guys are.
I do think any good lookin' list would have to have Rick Fox in addition to Dante' - dude's a tv/movie star.
Ugly list we can probably all agree with has to start with Jeremy Hyatt and Sam Cassell.

I actually never thought Dante was really that good-looking of a guy. He just had that long hair that made Dick Vitale moist. Calabria had the nose of a bad boxer.

There was a bench player on Maryland a number of years back that my wife and her friends went ga ga over. Matt Kovarik, I think.

The wife was a big fan of Jawad Williams as well.

How did this thread get here?

JJ Reddick - NUMBER #1 with a bullett. Biggest a@@hat in the history of College Basketball.

Dave Sez - How did this thread get here?

This is what happens when you register too many "stream of conciousness" readers and writers. But, it makes for great fun.

Speaking of aesthetically unpleasing, what about Jim "Bozo" O'Brien, one of the most caucasian Caucasians ever, from Maryland in the early 70's? He was certainly one of the most reviled players in the ACC. [/quote]

i remember a couple of teams watching Duke games in the early 90's and women coming over to the television set and asking me who was that player for Duke and how gorgeous he was. Christian Laettner I would reply, "but just remember, any guy better looking than I am, has got to be gay and that is all that I am saying."

william wrote:

i remember a couple of teams watching Duke games in the early 90's and women coming over to the television set and asking me who was that player for Duke and how gorgeous he was. Christian Laettner I would reply, "but just remember, any guy better looking than I am, has got to be gay and that is all that I am saying."

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. The ladies did like Laettner. That's probably a factor in why so many guys hated him so much.

@32Dave

"Yes, that's an oft-repeated joke that ignores the fact that Michael did average 20 ppg his sophomore year.

http://www.sportsstats.com/bball/individual.stats/player_stats/player1017.txt"

Actually I think that is the point of the joke. It doesn't state anything to the effect of what he averaged, the joke means that no matter what his scoring average was, the only way he would stay under 20 in a game is if Smith didn't give him the time. This inherently means that if he was left in there he did score more and his scoring average reflects that. The joke fully takes this into account, and your point only backs up the joke more. So again, the only one holding Jordan under twenty was Smith.