Dave Sez

Dave, one point you might be forgetting is the perception that Duke gets all the calls. Apparently, this perception was a big reason for the Carolina hatred when it was at its apex, in the late 70's and 1980's. My dad used to be an ABCer for that reason and then said that it started to shift around the time that Krzyzewski pitched that fit and said that there were two different sets of standards for Carolina and everyone else when it came to offciating. A big reason that many other (non-ACC) fanbases hate Duke, I think, is because of that perception. That sort of feeds into your No. 5 point, that he screams at the referees. A lot of people think that it is through referee intimidation that he gets all the calls.

I do want to add that I don't think there was much of any sort of pro-Duke officiating bias this season. That may have something to do with Duke's skill level; who knows?

It was a well-written article, typical pro-Duke fare, and they are entitled to rebut.

What the writer fails to mention is that when you ballyhoo and hype every single McDonald's all-American including the undeserving ones like Paulus and McRoberts, it grates on REAL basketball fans.

Now if Duke fans have their panties in a bunch because they are hated, I recommend they polish their titles because those can't be taken away, and most of us other ACC fans would love to have a title trophy.

As for the Nation of Islam "blog," that's ridiculous. I stumbled on that piece of crap last week and thought that someone's about to get sued. It's reading a bit into Coach K making "the Negro" do his bidding, but Henderson's not blameless here and he basically did what John Chaney had his guy do and, bada bing, someone got hurt pretty badly. It was a frustration foul and maybe Coach K didn't "call" for it to happen, but he reaps a LOT of benefit off of the fact that he's the face of the program AND his kids "graduate" and they have names we can pronounce and every player grew up on a cul-de-sac and they don't taunt or whatever crap that Duke is peddling to Madison Avenue this week. What Henderson did was damage the image of the program. Coach K is responsible for that. Either the kid did what he did on orders and needs to be suspended for more than one game OR kicked off the team.

As a Virginia grad, I'd just be happy if Coach K would stop running up the score on teams by leaving starters in when games are essentially over. I'm not the first person to bring it up, but ACC coaches have gotten tired of it over the years, especially the programs looking to step up a wee bit. Because we all know if a team preens after dunks against Duke or "runs" up the score, Coach K gets all uppity and wants to street brawl except you aren't allowed to throw a punch back when you get cheap-shotted by one of his little Cosby kids.

If you don't believe me, look up an ACC tourney game back in the 1980's with Sampson. Coach K is STILL bitching about how Virginia "ran the score up by keeping Sampson in." Let the record show that Sampson was in foul trouble all day and played 22 minutes of a 40 minute game and Duke still got blown out. Then segue to a game when Pete Gillen was the coach and in a 40 point Duke victory at Cameron, he took out Elton Brand and William Avery only to allow Jay Heaps, a soccer player, to jack up three-point shots in the games waning moments. No cheap-shot from a Virginia player to retaliate. Then, you have the Dahntay Jones "push-up" game. Now, let me say that he got a spectacular dunk on a facial on a Virginia player, but then he did PUSH-UPS after the fact as a taunt. The game officials did not whistle for a technical. Nobody from Virginia cheap-shotted Jones or any other Dukie for showing them up. And it happened on Virginia's home floor. And Coach K claims that Pete Gillen was a friend of his? What kind of coaching "leader" allows his players to do such a thing, and to a "friend," no less?

Sorry, gang, but Coach K used to be a decent guy. I liked Duke mildly when Grant Hill was there, but it's gotten ridiculous now. There's no true sportsmanship in that program, and I've seen it first hand. Besides, if Coach K was any type of sportsman, he'd at least have petitioned the league to give back that win against Virginia when there was a clock error and officiating error that cost Virginia the game. Or, they could have done right by Clemson in THEIR clock error game. Getting one win on a clock error is lucky. Two? That ain't a coinky-dinky folks. And Coach K knows that. No true sportsman wants to win games like that.

dpc1994 wrote:

It was a well-written article, typical pro-Duke fare, and they are entitled to rebut.

I'll give it a try.

dpc1994 wrote:

What the writer fails to mention is that when you ballyhoo and hype every single McDonald's all-American including the undeserving ones like Paulus and McRoberts, it grates on REAL basketball fans.

Hard to deny that some Duke players are overhyped. At the same time, it doesn't make any sense to hold it against the program. What would you have Coach K do, write in to ESPN and tell Vitale to stop talking about Duke? Tell AP sportwriters to vote against his players for awards? This argument's thrown against a lot of top teams (e.g. Yankees), and it doesn't make any more sense to me when applied to them than it does when applied to Duke. Sure, Jeter is overrated--but why should I hold that against him, he did nothing wrong. Same with Wojo (one consistent target of this tirade) and Paulus.

dpc1994 wrote:

As for the Nation of Islam "blog," that's ridiculous. I stumbled on that piece of crap last week and thought that someone's about to get sued.

I think it's a parody, but yes, there are people out there who assert that K is racist because we have occasional good white players. I won't link to such sites though.

dpc1994 wrote:

It's reading a bit into Coach K making "the Negro" do his bidding, but Henderson's not blameless here and he basically did what John Chaney had his guy do and, bada bing, someone got hurt pretty badly. It was a frustration foul and maybe Coach K didn't "call" for it to happen, but he reaps a LOT of benefit off of the fact that he's the face of the program AND his kids "graduate" and they have names we can pronounce and every player grew up on a cul-de-sac and they don't taunt or whatever crap that Duke is peddling to Madison Avenue this week. What Henderson did was damage the image of the program.

That is a totally groundless assertion that Coach K "basically did what John Chaney had his guy do." For one thing, Henderson was our best offensive weapon in the UNC game. Hansbrough did nothing to Henderson, and yet Coach K would order a retaliation, risking one of his best offensive players? He'd have to be completely insane to do that. If you were going to deliberately attack the man, you just plainly would not use Henderson. I thank you for allowing that "maybe" Coach K didn't order it, but frankly "it's obvious to anyone who considers the matter" that he didn't is more on target.

That said, I think you're right that it damaged the image of the program, but I doubt it affected the level of hatred--when a "news" organization is content to run a list of hated players, morph the K's face into a rats, etc., you know it's past all bounds of rationality

dpc1994 wrote:

Coach K is responsible for that. Either the kid did what he did on orders and needs to be suspended for more than one game OR kicked off the team.

The punishment is pretty much exactly on target with what similar incidents from other teams have gotten. Do you disagree with Roy Williams and Hansbrough himself about the foul?

(and I don't want to hear that Roy wouldn't tell the truth about this, he's an honest man and if he thought it was intentional, he would have said so or declined to answer the question).

dpc1994 wrote:

As a Virginia grad, I'd just be happy if Coach K would stop running up the score on teams by leaving starters in when games are essentially over. I'm not the first person to bring it up, but ACC coaches have gotten tired of it over the years, especially the programs looking to step up a wee bit. Because we all know if a team preens after dunks against Duke or "runs" up the score, Coach K gets all uppity and wants to street brawl except you aren't allowed to throw a punch back when you get cheap-shotted by one of his little Cosby kids.

I wish he pulled starters earlier too, but I think you're absolutely nuts if you think he runs it up as much as Roy Williams, who somehow never seems to attract much criticism for it.

dpc1994 wrote:

Then, you have the Dahntay Jones "push-up" game. Now, let me say that he got a spectacular dunk on a facial on a Virginia player, but then he did PUSH-UPS after the fact as a taunt.

No defense for it. Just keep it in perspective is all Duke fans can ask.

dpc1994 wrote:

Besides, if Coach K was any type of sportsman, he'd at least have petitioned the league to give back that win against Virginia

Except that wouldn't make any sense--at best all you could ask is that he would ask that they go to the post-substitution situation. Why should he forfeit a game which was not over?

dpc1994 wrote:

Or, they could have done right by Clemson in THEIR clock error game.

Again, doing what? That game was tied, Duke had led most of the day. Don't know what you would have wanted him to do here.

Several interesting points have been brought up.

For the "Duke gets all the calls" thing, I didn't list that as a cause, because I see that as an effect. Duke doesn't actually get more calls than any other team of their caliber. I've looked at plenty of analyses of this and none support the idea that Duke gets more calls. It just seems that way because they win all the damn time and so many people want them to lose that they remember those calls. Do you think we'll be hearing for years about how the refs took Arron Aflalo out of that game by giving him two fouls in the first two minutes? Or the same with Greg Oden in the first three minutes? Nope. The only mention of those situations I've read are about how those guys need to try to avoid fouls. If the opponent had been Duke, countless page-inches would have been filled about the refs trying to give Duke the game.

If you don't believe me, consider that just today in another message board I read a mention about how the refs screwed UConn in 2004 by calling two early fouls on Emeka Okafor. No matter that he didn't foul out, three Duke players did or that UConn actually won the game.

As for K running it up, well as a Virginia fan, I have to agree with you. The thing is, I don't think he always does it, but he seemed to really try to a make point in those early Gillen years when Virginia was REALLY bad and Duke had maybe their strongest teams. There was no question that K was running the score up a few times, subbing Brand and other starters back in when the score was WAY out of reach. But like I said, they don't always do that and really all top programs blow other teams out from time to time. Hell, Kansas beat Nebraska by something like 60 points earlier this year.

As for Henderson, I don't believe that K had anything to do with it. Things happen sometimes. Yes, it has probably affected Duke's standing with some people, but probably not that many. Like I said, Duke haters are legion already.

Nice Karate Kid reference, Bill...er...I mean Dave.

Matt wrote:

Nice Karate Kid reference, Bill...er...I mean Dave.

I almost pulled that line for that exact reason! I just couldn't think of a substitute.

Nice post. However, I refuse to believe that the fact that Duke has a lot of white guys on the team contributes to the hatred. After all, most of the people who hate Duke are white. Plus, I have not heard of anyone who hates Tyler Handsborogh (spelling?) or Aaron Grey. I think it has more to do with the smugness of their coach, Their obnoxious fans (they chant "safety school" at other teams. Classy), and ESPN. And by ESPN, I of course mean Dick Vitale

WCT wrote:

Nice post. However, I refuse to believe that the fact that Duke has a lot of white guys on the team contributes to the hatred. After all, most of the people who hate Duke are white. Plus, I have not heard of anyone who hates Tyler Handsborogh (spelling?) or Aaron Grey. I think it has more to do with the smugness of their coach, Their obnoxious fans (they chant "safety school" at other teams. Classy), and ESPN. And by ESPN, I of course mean Dick Vitale

Oh, I think it's mostly white fans who hate white players. Not ALL white players of course. It's just that if you have a player who evokes some sort of reaction from opposing fans, it always seems stronger if that player is white.

Dave --

Do you think this could be an issue of political correctness (to an extent)? I'm a white guy watching basketball and I see (e.g.) a black player chest-thumping and generally punking it up on court. If I say, "What a punk -- I don't like that guy," then someone invariably chimes in with, "You're just saying that because he's black (or, has cornrows, or tattoos, or whatever)." Whereas if I make the same statement about J.J. Redick chest-pumping and punking it up, it's OK because he's white.

I'm not disagreeing with your point (just the opposite, really) but I am just wondering if the entire situation is exacerbated by political correctness -- i.e., it's OK to hate white guys.

Matt wrote:

Dave -- Do you think this could be an issue of political correctness (to an extent)? I'm a white guy watching basketball and I see (e.g.) a black player chest-thumping and generally punking it up on court. If I say, "What a punk -- I don't like that guy," then someone invariably chimes in with, "You're just saying that because he's black (or, has cornrows, or tattoos, or whatever)." Whereas if I make the same statement about J.J. Redick chest-pumping and punking it up, it's OK because he's white. I'm not disagreeing with your point (just the opposite, really) but I am just wondering if the entire situation is exacerbated by political correctness -- i.e., it's OK to hate white guys.

You know, I really don't know. I'm not sure I want to try to guess, because then you get into tricky areas. I'll just leave it as an observation that I think most basketball fans would agree with.

Although I don't really think it's a political correctness thing (at least not entirely). It seems less conscious than that.

Vick wrote: "Hard to deny that some Duke players are overhyped. At the same time, it doesn't make any sense to hold it against the program."

That's true. But the question is, why is Duke hated? And even though it doesn't make sense, overhyped players is nevertheless one of the reasons we hate Duke.

In fact, I think hype in general is the biggest factor. We all get tired of anyone, or anything, that gets too much hype, whether a sports team, movie, celebrity. After a while, the reaction is "Stop telling me how great it is!" and you just want to hate it because you're tired of hearing about it.

One other factor: I know some really, really obnoxious Duke fans. Obviously every school has its obnoxious fans, but the Duke obnoxiousness is different: it's smugness. These Duke fans assume the attitude that they are personally responsible for the team's success -- this especially goes for the alumni (who feel that as Cameron Crazies they were so clever). Obnoxious fans of other teams have some of that attitude, but I detect a different, more personalized, quality in the Duke fans I know. (And of course, I'm basing this on just a handful of Duke fans, so this may not be a generally applicable reason for hating Duke.)

Gromit wrote:

Vick wrote: "Hard to deny that some Duke players are overhyped. At the same time, it doesn't make any sense to hold it against the program." That's true. But the question is, why is Duke hated? And even though it doesn't make sense, overhyped players is nevertheless one of the reasons we hate Duke. In fact, I think hype in general is the biggest factor. We all get tired of anyone, or anything, that gets too much hype, whether a sports team, movie, celebrity. After a while, the reaction is "Stop telling me how great it is!" and you just want to hate it because you're tired of hearing about it. One other factor: I know some really, really obnoxious Duke fans. Obviously every school has its obnoxious fans, but the Duke obnoxiousness is different: it's smugness. These Duke fans assume the attitude that they are personally responsible for the team's success -- this especially goes for the alumni (who feel that as Cameron Crazies they were so clever). Obnoxious fans of other teams have some of that attitude, but I detect a different, more personalized, quality in the Duke fans I know. (And of course, I'm basing this on just a handful of Duke fans, so this may not be a generally applicable reason for hating Duke.)

Yes, you're sort of summing up my points 2 and 3. I guess "obnoxious" is an offshoot of my third point, but it's related.

WCT wrote:

Nice post. However, I refuse to believe that the fact that Duke has a lot of white guys on the team contributes to the hatred. After all, most of the people who hate Duke are white. Plus, I have not heard of anyone who hates Tyler Handsborogh (spelling?) or Aaron Grey. I think it has more to do with the smugness of their coach, Their obnoxious fans (they chant "safety school" at other teams. Classy), and ESPN. And by ESPN, I of course mean Dick Vitale

Haven't heard of anyone who hates Tyler Hansbrough? Try the major NC State blog (StatesFans Nation). I'll pick out some quotes from the first five comments in their post on Henderson-Hansbrough:

1) The worst part of this is that Hansbrough now becomes a saint for displaying no class and getting what he deserved."

2) "Handsblow wanted to show up Dook, Henderson wanted to make sure the Traveller paid a price if he tried. I don’t think Henderson tried to deliberately smash poor little Tyler..."

3) "I’m glad Hanbrough got smashed"

4) "I definitely feel sorry for Henderson and not Hansbaby."

5) "Henderson would definitely not have done that had he known Hansbaby was going to bleed like Rocky, but, with Hansbaby trying to muscle in another basket, Henderson definitely threw every bit of force he had behind stopping Hansbaby cold—even if his intent went terribly awry."

6) "I sincerely hope Hansbaby goes pro this year, not because I fear his talent, but because I hate looking at the guy and all the crap he gets away with. It was pretty obvious down the stretch of the season that opposing players were getting tired of the golden boy and his antics too as Costner stood his ground, GT hacked the guy like mad, etc."

7) "It is a shame that a jackass like Hansborough takes a swing at a 40-minute warrior like Costner and all media dorks like Jimmy Dykes can talk about is Hansborough’s “will” and etc."

8 ) "Well, “Psycho T,” definitely had it coming to him, and I don’t feel one bit sorry for the guy."

These are the first five comments, folks, and there's some worse things down later on. And yeah, I do think he gets at least some of this crap because he's white (screaming a lot doesn't help--see Noah--and State fans have a legitimate grievance that Hansbrough swung at a State player and should have been ejected, but wasn't, but I think race factors in too)

And to be fair, I went to a hell of a lot of games from 2002-2006, and the only chants I ever heard about other schools were to the other Big Four schools, and it's not like they don't give us any for being "nerds," "dorks," and what have you, so I don't see how either is worse. You may appreciate this though: When Duke opened up the 05-06 season against Columbia, they had a group of about 5-8 fans who came down and as people filtered into the stadium, they did some yelling about their US News ranking (I think one over Duke's at the time).

Ok Vick, if you pick UNC's blood rival, then obviously some fans are going to hate Handsborough. But my point is, there are plenty of great white players in college bball (TH, Aaron Grey, Chase Budinger, the twins on Stanford, Drew Neitzel, Devedorf on Syracuse, etc) who are revered by GENERAL collge bball fans because they are great ballplayers (obviously excluding their teams' blood rivals). The only guys from Duke who were really truly universally hated were Christian Laettener and JJ Reddick. I think it is coincidental that they were both white. Its not like people loved Sheldon Williams and hated JJ.

WCT wrote:

Ok Vick, if you pick UNC's blood rival, then obviously some fans are going to hate Handsborough. But my point is, there are plenty of great white players in college bball (TH, Aaron Grey, Chase Budinger, the twins on Stanford, Drew Neitzel, Devedorf on Syracuse, etc) who are revered by GENERAL collge bball fans because they are great ballplayers (obviously excluding their teams' blood rivals). The only guys from Duke who were really truly universally hated were Christian Laettener and JJ Reddick. I think it is coincidental that they were both white. Its not like people loved Sheldon Williams and hated JJ.

Bobby Hurley, Chris Collins, Wojo, Greg Newton.

As I said before, being white isn't the only reason why players are hated and it's not a complete reason either. But it seems to me (and many others) to be a factor.

You know who I hated?!? Shane Battier! I swear that every time people (announcers, etc.) would talk about him I expected them to say he could walk on water: "Jesus Battier scored 47 points, had 22 boards, 14 assists, 12 steals, and 10 blocks last night for the unprecedented quintuple-double. After the game, he called his mother, went to his volunteer job at the Children's Hospital, and then led a prayer group for inmates at the local jail. Next week he is slated to fly to Europe to pick up his Nobel Prizes. He is expected to stop in Jerusalem to broker Mideast peace on his way back to Durham. Oh, and he helps little old ladies cross the street."

Matt wrote:

You know who I hated?!? Shane Battier! I swear that every time people (announcers, etc.) would talk about him I expected them to say he could walk on water: "Jesus Battier scored 47 points, had 22 boards, 14 assists, 12 steals, and 10 blocks last night for the unprecedented quintuple-double. After the game, he called his mother, went to his volunteer job at the Children's Hospital, and then led a prayer group for inmates at the local jail. Next week he is slated to fly to Europe to pick up his Nobel Prizes. He is expected to stop in Jerusalem to broker Mideast peace on his way back to Durham. Oh, and he helps little old ladies cross the street."

My wife is a Tar Heel and bigtime Duke hater. She particularly disliked Battier simply because he was so likable. It was like it was unfair to have a guy who was so good and yet also intelligent, funny and humble. That was too much for her to bear. Of course, she doesn't follow the coverage like the rest of us, so she probably didn't realize the extent to which Battier was covered by all the national media.

WCT wrote:

Ok Vick, if you pick UNC's blood rival, then obviously some fans are going to hate Handsborough. But my point is, there are plenty of great white players in college bball (TH, Aaron Grey, Chase Budinger, the twins on Stanford, Drew Neitzel, Devedorf on Syracuse, etc) who are revered by GENERAL collge bball fans because they are great ballplayers (obviously excluding their teams' blood rivals). The only guys from Duke who were really truly universally hated were Christian Laettener and JJ Reddick. I think it is coincidental that they were both white. Its not like people loved Sheldon Williams and hated JJ.

WCT, I see your point about the rivalry, but come on. Hansbrough is the only player on that list who is even going to finish his career in the same zip code of Laettner and Redick in terms of accomplishment (assuming Budinger doesn't stick around four years). One the ESPN list of "Most Hated Dukies" that came out a while back, I think 8 of 10 were white, 1 was Gerald (who, as Dave said before, wouldn't be on there next year), and 1 was Brian Davis, only there because he was close with Laettner. There's just no way that 8 of 10 is coincidence.

I think a big part is the "holier than though" attitude of the Duke fans, players, coaches, and administration have taken. Even when they're wrong, they'll try to spin things so that it was someone else's fault or didn't happen at all. This rubs a lot of people the wrong way.

I think that fans also got tired this past year about Duke making excuses that they just didn't have the talent. However, if you look at their roster it is full of McDonald's All Americans. If this is the case that they don't have the talent, I would Coach K is to blame, but no Duke fan would say that.

Funny you should mention Battier as 'saint', Matt. I went to Duke Divinity School when Battier was playing, and was an RA on the freshman campus. I spent a lot of time in those East Campus computer labs, and there was one day where I was having a heck of a time getting my computer to reguritate a paper for school. I had just about completely lost my religion on the terminal when a hand reached down from above, hit a few keys on my keyboard, and walla, my paper was 'saved'. The hand in question was attached to a very tall young man who just said, "That's happened to me before" before strolling out of the lab. Later some of my students told me it was Shane. I can't remember if I had just said a prayer before the hand of "God" was present, but I always looked upon it as a miracle of sorts. Just so you know .

acchalfbreed wrote:

I can't remember if I had just said a prayer before the hand of "God" was present, but I always looked upon it as a miracle of sorts. Just so you know .

Just once, can't somebody say, "Shane cut me off in traffic" or "That jerk stole my girlfriend" or "He doesn't recycle"? Something? Anything?

Funny website, Dave. This comment is for Matt. I went to Wake, so I feel very comfortable telling you "Shane cut me off in traffic." And its true. However, I was driving lost in Durham trying to visit a friend who attended there, and the car in question didn't really so much cut me off, as just get in my way long enough to allow the driver to yell over to me, "Are you lost?" You guessed it. Shane Battier. He knew my friend and told me how to get there. I didn't have another wrong turn. Isn't that wierd?

Back in 2000, I developed a nasty rash on my left leg. It itched like crazy but nothing would make it go away. Well, one night I was watching Duke destroy some hapless on foe on TV. After the game, they did the requisite interview with Battier. At one point, I swear he sort of paused during his response and looked directly at me through the TV! A few seconds later, I looked down and my leg was completely cured. When I looked back up, Shane was smiling.

If you take your favorite program - College X - and you were able to same the same stuff about it that is true about Duke (wins a lot, great coach, family atmosphere, graduates most all of it's players from a high academic institution, articulate kids, records for Final Fours and conferences titles and national championships, yadda yadda yadda) - 99% of the world would take it in a heartbeat.

gurufrisbee wrote:

graduates most all of it's players from a high academic institution

It's interesting that you mention that -- that has always been sort of a "there's something rotten in Norway" thing for me. If Duke is so great (tough, rigorous, whatever) academically, then how do so many of the basketball players manage to balance the demands of practice, travel, etc. and still graduate in three years? Is the percentage of all undergraduates who finish in three years more or less than the percentage of basketball players? How about football players? Golf? Tennis? Field hockey? What are these players majoring in? If I walk on to campus day 1 as a regular Joe and say that I can only afford to pay for three years of college, will I be able to finish? How hard/easy will it be? What if I want to major in math? Physics? Engineering?

Matt wrote:

gurufrisbee wrote: graduates most all of it's players from a high academic institution It's interesting that you mention that -- that has always been sort of a "there's something rotten in Norway" thing for me. If Duke is so great (tough, rigorous, whatever) academically, then how do so many of the basketball players manage to balance the demands of practice, travel, etc. and still graduate in three years? Is the percentage of all undergraduates who finish in three years more or less than the percentage of basketball players? How about football players? Golf? Tennis? Field hockey? What are these players majoring in? If I walk on to campus day 1 as a regular Joe and say that I can only afford to pay for three years of college, will I be able to finish? How hard/easy will it be? What if I want to major in math? Physics? Engineering?

It wouldn't very hard to graduate in three years if you stay for the summers. Similar to most peer institutions, Duke students are expected to take 4 classes a semester (34 total--there are 2 extra). You play for 3 years, that's 24, so you need 10 more classes--which isn't particularly tough to do in the summers if you would want to stick around anyway. Most students don't, of course, because 1) they love school, 2) they aren't necessarily footing the bill and 3) you can make your resume more impressive with internships and such if you stay the full four years.

Also, your "regular Joe" isn't going to save a lot of money by graduating in three years, since this likely involves some summer work.

As for major, yeah, it'd probably be harder to do a math/physics type major and graduate quickly. There are certainly such players on the team though--Nick Horvath was a physics major, Lee Melchionni was an econ major, etc. Don't think any of the three year players who did that, but it's also not a very big sample size--J-Will, Boozer, Dunleavy, and Shav are the only four I can think of who left after junior year. Not sure how you think this is "so many..."

And which of those guys graduated in three years? I know JWill did and I think at least one of Boozer and Dunleavy did. I don't remember hearing that about Shav, since his departure was a surprise.

So, I don't think it's a major issue. It's pretty rare, but I agree that it would be difficult to pull off. Duke is one of the most selective/hardest universities in the country and basketball players are generally not the best of students. They hardly come in with the same academic credentials as regular students and on top of that, they spend a TON of time doing basketball stuff (practice, games, travel, working out, etc). Even with summer school, it seems a bit unlikely to me that they could get a legit degree in only three years. I'm not saying that anyone's cheating, just that they are likely exploiting some loopholes in Duke's requirements/curriculum and are probably not taking a course of study that the university planned.

Sociology dept at Dook is well known among students for its ease, and related areas in women's studies and african-american studies are also considered cake. That is, all you need do is parrot/cater to the leanings of the professor in the class. Williams was a sociology grad.

Dave wrote:

And which of those guys graduated in three years? I know JWill did and I think at least one of Boozer and Dunleavy did. I don't remember hearing that about Shav, since his departure was a surprise. So, I don't think it's a major issue. It's pretty rare, but I agree that it would be difficult to pull off. Duke is one of the most selective/hardest universities in the country and basketball players are generally not the best of students. They hardly come in with the same academic credentials as regular students and on top of that, they spend a TON of time doing basketball stuff (practice, games, travel, working out, etc). Even with summer school, it seems a bit unlikely to me that they could get a legit degree in only three years. I'm not saying that anyone's cheating, just that they are likely exploiting some loopholes in Duke's requirements/curriculum and are probably not taking a course of study that the university planned.

I think JWill and Dunleavy did (or were very close and planning to come back after a year in the NBA), although my memory may be faulty. My position's probably like yours, that most players take advantage of the easiest courses they can find. I don't think we're out of line though, and are better than most schools in this respect (check out the football factories sometime for some really creative majors).

Also, per Ted's comment, it's pretty damn easy to get C's in sociology and such. It's very plausible that even with no favoritism at all most if not all basketball players could at least pass.

I got out of school at 11 on a Monday. Me and some friends had a limo to go downtown because of graduation so we decided to go to ESPN zone. As we were pulling up we saw Shane walking his girlfriend in to ESPN zone; we went in there and we went into the VIP room and asked the waitresses if he could come in there after he got done with every thing and he said yes! He came in there he is the biggest guy I have ever seen and we got pictures but they didn't develop clearly, just a fuzzy kind of brightness (really strange) but I got a visor signed by him and he paid for our Limo 'cause he said he knew it was our graduation. I'm naming my first son after him.

I kept this quote because it affected me deeply. I have it on my beer fridge at home.
-Shane Battier's plans for his pro paycheck? To pay off his parents' mortgage. "I'm going to have a pretty similar lifestyle to now," Battier told the Raleigh News & Observer. "The only difference is I'll probably have a nicer home and a nicer TV."

When I get a nice TV and home, I'll try to help my parents buy a better home too.

vick wrote:

It wouldn't very hard to graduate in three years if you stay for the summers. Similar to most peer institutions, Duke students are expected to take 4 classes a semester (34 total--there are 2 extra).

I am a professor at an ACC school and our students require 120 credits to graduate (my department actually requires 126) -- quite a bit more than the 102 that you quote for Duke (assuming 3 credits per class). I was an undergraduate at another ACC school and it also required 120 credits to graduate. Are you sure about your numbers? If so, I would say that Duke's requirements are very much unlike those of its peer institutions.

I don't know specifically which basketball players have graduated in three years, but I recall it wasn't too long ago that Coach K claimed that no one ever left Duke without graduating while a number of his players left after three years. Who was the first to leave without graduating? It wasn't too long ago, but I don't remember the exact player.

Consider the sources, but I am not the only person who has thought about this:

http://www.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/7217936

http://www.truthaboutduke.com/outside_lines.php

When my family had to go to Memphis for my little sister's cancer treatment, we had to stay in a place called the Grizzly House. I later learned that Shane Battier built it all, brick by brick and it can hold almost 100 people and its five stories tall. When my family came, he met us at the door - later he played with me against my two brothers on the indoor half court they have their that Shane also built. He said I woulda beat them without his help, but I don't think I would have. We won by 105 points too. He also visited my sister before surgery, and gave her a lucky ball. The next day, the doctors cancelled the surgery because they couldn't find it. She now plays basketball every day, and is being recruited by Texas. And we owe it all to Shane.

I used to hate Battier. Then, when I was stationed in Afganistan, we were in a firefight and my patrol ran out of ammo. We couldn't radio for help, and we were pinned down. Suddenly, a man tank appeared out of nowhere, and positioned itself between us and the attacking group. The attackers broke from their positions, and we were freed. The tank driver turned out to be Battier, who was actually just in the area trying to educate the local poppy growers about the harmful effects of drugs and move them to a fair trade, non-addictive tobacco substitue used by Native Americans. He cooked everyone a meal that night, and they still have a standing peace agreement in that area of Afganistan today. He changed my life.

I heard about this from a friend of mine, and I have a story too. When I was with my mom in the mall, we got separated somewhere in Belks. I started to cry, and then this really tall man came up to me. He asked me my name, and said he would help me find my parent, if I would tell him their name and what they looked like. Somehow through my crying and tears, he understood enough to look around for my mom, and when he found her, walked me up to her, telling her how brave I'd been! She knew better, but pretended to be proud of me. Then the tall guy offered her two tickets for a game he said he was going to play in, would we like to come? We did go, and watched them dismantle Maryland at Cameron. I've been a fan of Duke and Shane Battier since that day, which is really disappointing to my father, since he graduated UNC. I keep telling him if I can't get into Duke in a few years, I'll go to UNC. But Shane will always be the man to me.

When I met Shane, I was visiting Duke and of course like I always do, I go inside of Cameron just to check and see if the team is inside. My dad and I went inside and sure enough, they were in there. I couldn't believe it- so we waited in the front of the building to see if we could actually meet them when they were through showering and everything. We waited for 2 hours! Then we saw Reggie Love and Chris Duhon, so we asked them for their autographs, and of course they obliged. Then, Mike Dunleavy came out next, and he asked me if I was a student at Duke and I said no, and then I got his autograph. He talked to us for about 5 minutes, which I thought was really cool. Then we saw Nate Dogg come out! He was on his cell phone, but he still gave me his autograph, which I thought was really sweet of him to do.(I mean, he could have said no, cause he was talking on the phone. ) Then we waited for another half hour or so, and were about to give up on Shane, when my dad saw him getting into his Jeep!(I knew it was his b/c of the Michigan tags) So we ran over there and stopped him in the parking lot. It was hilarious! We talked to him for probably 20 minutes right there and he shook our hands and asked me if I was a student there, and where we were from. Then I told him I was his biggest fan in the entire world and he smiled. It was really awesome! My dad talked to him about the season and how it might be tough for them to win the championship, but he said that he thought they would go all the way. He wished me luck in getting into Duke , and told us that it was a pleasure for HIM to meet US!!! I totally couldn't believe that one! Then he told us Merry Christmas and bye, and drove off(oh yeah, he almost ran over me b/c I wouldn't get out of the way- I was still staring at him!) Then he waved and left. Whew!!! That was long! Then the 2nd day after a basketball game @ Duke(they had just whipped up on A&T)when I waited outside in the freezing cold to get autographs on my new poster. I saw Nate Dogg, and Mike D. again, and talked to JWill for a few minutes, he was really funny. I met Casey Sanders and Nick Horvath, and Carlos and got their autos too. Then we saw Shane and ran over there. This time, there was alot of people, so I couldn't say much except, "Can I get your autograph again?" and "Can I take a picture with you?" He told me he remembered me from before, and I almost melted!! Then he said he had to go, so he got in his Jeep and left. Everybody stood there and waved at him and he waved back. Well, that's about it- I think I went a little lengthy on it, but once I get started, I can't stop! (lol!) Shane is such an awesome guy.

I love this thread.

Dave wrote:

I love this thread.

OUCH (image removed)

I had to take out that second image Matt. It seems the folks you linked to don't take kindly to hotlinking. They replaced your pic with a nasty bit of Internet legend known as goatse. If you don't know, don't ask.

Whoops, sorry Dave. Didn't mean to cause you any heartache. Given the tone of the most recent "I love Shane" post, the lollerskates and roflcopter seemed appropriate. Have a good holiday weekend.

Matt

Matt wrote:

Whoops, sorry Dave. Didn't mean to cause you any heartache. Given the tone of the most recent "I love Shane" post, the lollerskates and roflcopter seemed appropriate. Have a good holiday weekend. Matt

No heartache. I'm not that squeamish, but still, that's probably not what folks are looking for here! They come to this thread to bask in the glow of the Battier.

I have never been too good with technology, so when I saw the... what are they? lol'erskates... I didn't get it. But the second vision, I got. It was a coffee spill on a table, but it was in the very image of Shane Battier. It spoke to me, and I was glad Matt posted it. Sorry it was difficult for you, Dave. Thank you, Saint Shane, whereever you are!

Presidential hopeful Shane Battier played the rock star as rumors of a trade whipped up a Seattle crowd Friday night, who were collectively shouting promises of universal heath care and an end to the war in Iraq as a crowd much younger than those at most political rallies or Portland home games. Also noteworthy, the torrential rainfall spread throughout the entire upper Northwestern US for several weeks suddenly stopped and numerous sightings of double rainbows occurred. No word yet on pots of gold being found, but several folks won lotteries using combinations of the number “31”.

I took a German class with Shane. One day a couple years ago I went to shanebattier.com and sent a note via the website to Shane saying something like "hey I was in your German class, how are things?" or something lame.

The next day I got a response from someone through the website that was entirely in German. I have no idea if it was him or someone who is paid to respond to fans, and mistakenly thought I was a European fan of his.

I have a Shane story. I was visiting a friend in Memphis and wanted to go out. My friend mentioned a thing to raise money and had tickets from someone she knew; I thought she called it a Stextaxular. It sounded kinda wild but she usually knows what is happening and I was game, especially when she said NBA stars were putting it on. Anyway, we got to the Save the Stax Museum of American Soul (Staxtaxular!) and mingled with stars while enjoying memories of Rufus Thomas, Otis Redding and Johnnie Taylor.

What made it so cool is when Shane Battier took the stage, he had a killer electric guitar solo BY HIMSELF playing Johnny B. Goode with the band. Someone beside me told me he had just learned the instrument THAT DAY! I didn’t believe it, but later I heard he had wanted "to do something different". Later, he left the gig with his wife Heidi and took off in a blaze of light in his converted Delorean. Oh, and the party was the best I’ve ever been to. I met my future husband there too! Thanks Shane, where ever you are…

We got a new "patron" on my out-patient hall for a bone spur removal this week. I went into the room for the usual list of questions before the operation and the guy (a really BIG guy) asks me, "Is that your son?" I have a picture of my son, who is 8, hanging on my nametag. "Yes it is. Do you have any children?" I asked him back, trying to make the general nurse small-talk.

"All children are my children."

Ok, that made me take a second look. This guy, a very tall and generally good lucking, athletic and bald guy, is sitting in the hospital gown with a serious look and friendly intensity. I think he means it, so I ask him back, "Why are all children your children?"

And he says, "I believe it’s my job to be a positive role model because I believe it’s everybody’s job to make our society, our world, a better place.
I was fortunate enough to have positive influences in my life – both my parents and my family – to where I understand its not about how much money you have, its not about the things you have and can buy, its about family, its about community, its about helping others. So I'm a role model for all children. Because we all should be."

Turns out that this guy is a basketball player... a PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL PLAYER... and is dead serious. As I finish prepping him, I wish him luck in the surgery, and he wishes me luck in being a great mom and then says, "That’s what brings happiness in this life I believe." This guy would be a great parent, I am sure. Where did he come from?

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS197539+02-Apr-2008+BW20080402

I used to hate Shane Battier. Mostly because he was too dang gracious in defeat. I thought he just didn't get that certain things, basketball especially, wasn't meant to be a gentleman's game. Remember those RightGuard commercials with Barkley talking about being uncivilized? They worked because of the IRONY. And Shane didn't seem to get that ACC basketball wasn't a try-out for the deoderant commercial.

But as I've gotten older and time has moved on, I realize that Shane was just an expression of jealousy for this suffering UNC fan. With age and perspective (and a recent national championship), I can spot Shane a bit of his deserved respect for being as tough as they come AND playing with more pride than some of the floor floppers we see today.

Maybe I'm just glad he's moved on, no longer being an obsticle to our national asperations. But he's still tough. And gracious. Just see what he's doing now for proof.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/5781160.html